Feedback - FROWNS

[Hankosaurus]

Fellow Members,

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member "gurmeet" of Punjab has willfully misrepresented a product offered in Buy & Sell. Numerous fair and patiently presented attempts to encourage an amicable solution to the problem have failed. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

No further inquiries, nor any special comments from any Member on this issue will be entertained by the Moderators.

[btgeorge]

Hello everyone,
I recently bought a Nikon SB 600 flash from member "Gurmeet" based on his post in the Buy and Sell Section:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=13884.0

Depending on his description of the item as 'mint' condition, and on a superficial examination of his posted pictures in that post, it seemed like a good deal.

I contacted him on the given number and he assured me that the condition was 'mint' and to hurry if I wanted the item as 'three others were interested' in the same.

Consequently, I paid Rs. 8500 plus Rs. 350 (shipping cost) =  Rs. 8850 to his bank account. Nothing happened for a few days. I contacted him and got him to send it finally.

To his credit, it was well packed and there was absolutely no sign of damage to the parcel while in transit and I opened the package in front of the courier guy and there was no external damage to the flash either.

The flash, however, was not in a mint condition. It was well used. There was a screw missing on the underside of the head (for reference see my post in the thread above) – suggesting that the flash unit had been repaired by a non-professional at least once.

I put in fresh batteries waited for the 'ready' yellow light to come on and pressed the 'test fire' button. A faint click and the 'ready' button blinked...no flash output.
Put the flash on my D90, clicked the shutter button..no flash.

I tried the zoom which was working. The LCD was also working. Did a reset and tried again with no results.

In short the flash was DOA.

I called up Mr. Gurmeet and told him that the flash was not firing. He suggested that the flash tube may have got damaged in transit!! (Instant Diagnosis!! How did he know it was a flash tube problem immediately, when other members needed more details from me to come to the same conclusion?).

Moreover, given the nature of the packing and the absence of any sign of external damage to the packing or the flash, I thought it extremely unlikely that the flash had got 'damaged' in transit.

But I still was willing to give him the benefit of doubt and continued discussion with him.

After some more discussion, he said he would repair the flash if I sent it to him. I agreed.
Half an hour later he seems to have changed his mind and sent me a one line email with the words "No return policy".

After getting this jolt, I tried to contact him many times – he either cut my calls or did not pick up, smsed him -  no response, emailed him -  no response.

Finally I put up a message to him on his sell thread asking him for a solution. He did not respond to that too for a couple of days. Meanwhile many members posted in that thread about the situation and the need for Mr. Gurmeet to take responsibility for his product.

After a couple of days, he responded sketchily, refusing to accept any responsibility for the flash and refusing to make amends.

I then made enquiries locally and ascertained that the repair cost, if it was a flash tube problem only would be around Rs. 1500. I then posted a message asking Mr. Gurmeet to re-imburse at least this amount. I emailed him the same message.

He refused, now asking him to send it back to him for repair. But given his attitude shown so far, I was not prepared to take the risk of sending it back to him. What if the flash got "damaged" again in transit? He said his role would end after sending the flash back after "repair".

Since he was not prepared to take any responsibility for his actions I am now posting this in the "FROWNS" thread to warn other members not to deal with Mr. Gurmeet in future.

I am convinced that he has willfully misrepresented the state of his flash as mint, whereas it is not mint at all. When the said flash arrived DOA, and he was confronted with the issue, he did not communicate any caring whatsoever for the buyer or for the product that he had sold.

In case he is banned and he rejoins this forum under some other name, I am posting his details too here:

Name: Gurmeet Singh
Address:
Studio Photogenic
Light Chowk, Near fly over
Kotkapura-151204
Dist: Faridkot,
Punjab
Phone number:  9216728176
Email: sarujai@rediffmail.com
Bank: HDFC
Account Number: 0648*******949 (partial number for obvious security reasons)

Thank you,
Rocky
PS: (Edited on 2nd December 2011)
I got the flash repaired at a good shop with an original Nikon Flash Tube for which I was charged Rs. 1350. The scan copy of the bill is attached.
I emailed the seller "gurmeet" and made him a very fair offer. Since it would cost me Rs 350 to send the flash to him for repair, I offered to deduct that amount from the bill and asked him to refund just Rs. 1000. (Even if I had sent the flash to him for repair as he wanted, he would have incurred Rs. 600 for repair - by his own admission - and another Rs. 350 for courier back to me after repair. So he would not lose anything by my offer.

PS 2: (Edited on 6th December 2011)
The seller emailed me denying any intention to defraud and agreed to partially reimburse the cost of repair as I offered him above.
He has refunded Rs. 1000 as his restitution.
Miracles do happen!! :)

[Hankosaurus]

Hello Francis.

Thanks for your ideas and input.

... A lot of newbies on their first post itself put up a sale for their friends, verifying it would be a herculean task isn't it.

Presently, any Member of JJMPF can sell equipment of his own which he has used, or occasionally sell equipment belonging to (and used by) a friend. Members should be ever mindful that newbies with no track record may or may not be credible. And, for that matter, experience has shown us that tenure is no guarantee of integrity in Buy & Sell either. It just gives the Members more data points from which to evaluate sellers and buyers.

I for one would never sell for a friend because it is hard to know how he or she use their equipment on their own. The only thing one can truly vouch for is their friends integrity & honesty. Non the less one should not stop members from buying good used equipment.

Well, if the Member isn't willing to stand in 100% for the owner and product to assure the quality of the deal, then he shouldn't sell for that friend.

If the seller is a vendor, trader, buyer, seller, broker or anyone else who has a profit motive as an on-going mode of operation, then he will not be allowed to conduct his business on JJMPF. His access will be blocked and his account will be removed. If JJMPF Members want to conduct business with such people as trade in camera gear, or in anything else, they will have to go elsewhere to manage their transactions with those businesses.

Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit (3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15. It will put a safeguard at least.

The minimum post scheme can be easily defeated. As before mentioned above, even tenure is no assurance of integrity. To the point of a prerequisite "three month's Membership in good standing," it may seem like a helpful idea on the surface. However, anyone looking at a post can see what the seller Member's tenure is. Seems to me like he could just decide that he isn't going to buy from anyone with less than, say six month's tenure. That way, each buyer Member can take his own decision about how much tenure is acceptable to himself, and how much risk he is willing to entertain.

I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing (yes including myself, I have bought a Canon 60D from this forum). At least some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay. ... Regards, Francis

The very best safeguard is prudent judgement on the part of the Members participating in the Buy & Sell Forum. Beyond that, and working together, we can assure that the Buy & Sell Rules are adhered to.  This will go a long way toward keeping the damage to our fellow JJMPF Members from riff-raff at a minimum.

:)

[thelightening]

Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit(3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15.It will put a safeguard atleast.I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing(yes including myself,I have bought a canon 60D from this forum).
Atleast some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay.
Regards
Francis

Francis, if u see the posts before, I already have suggested this idea, but its not possible to handle it seems, so mods replied that its not possible :(.

Most of the newbies here will join jjmf for selling or buying something... their first post majorly will be in buy&sell :)

[Francis]

Henry

wrapped in lies like "selling for a friend,"

A lot of newbies on their first post itself put up a sale for their friends, verifying it would be a herculean task is,nt it.I for one would never sell for a friend because it is hard to know how he or she use their equipment on their own.The only thing one can truly vouch for is their friends integrity & honesty.Non the less one should not stop members from buying good used equipment.
Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit(3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15.It will put a safeguard atleast.I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing(yes including myself,I have bought a canon 60D from this forum).
Atleast some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay.
Regards
Francis

[Hankosaurus]

Hello Sahil.

Why don't you start a dealers section separately? Charge a monthly commission fee, which should help the forum be self-reliant and maybe if going gets good let the forum expand to a larger database :)

This is because Buy & Sell is a service created for the purposes of:

1. JJMPF Members exchanging photographic gear which they have used, for money.

2. JJMPF Members exchanging photographic gear which they have used for other Members' photographic gear which they want to use.

3. JJMPF Members exchanging money for other Members' photographic gear which they want to use.

4. Combinations of the above.

The idea of it taking on the qualities of a yard sale, a Sunday boot/trunk sale, a me-too eBay contender, or anything else with a pecuniary business angle to it is outside of the scope and purpose of the board.

The present setup is also an accurate and clear representation of the Forum's owner/Administrator's wishes with respect to how photographic equipment is to be bought and sold on JJMPF. The board is for Members, but not for dealers outside of JJMPF. It is for Members' personal gear which they have used themselves, and not a service to the marketplace at large.

Dealers/vendors of used gear have plenty of other places to spread their wares without parasitically attaching themselves to JJMPF as part of their electronic storefronts for unknown quality and questionable integrity. Those who would hawk "God only knows what" which came from "Heaven only knows where," wrapped in lies like "selling for a friend," have no place here.  Such dubious peddlers are not welcome in the JJMPF Buy & Sell Board, plain and simple.

Members can reasonably expect two things to be true when they click on the JJMPF Buy & Sell Board: 1. The gear offered is primarily and fundamentally photographic in its nature, and 2. It is gear which was owned and used by a Member or a close friend of the Member, and which friend the Member is willing to stand in for to assure integrity and quality in the deal.

:)

[aces170]

We could, provided JJ Mehta was in the business of selling Tobacco instead of Cameras  ;). Of course that is my opinion and not of the Mehtas.

Darn, forgot about that :P

[image]

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

Why dont you start a dealers section separately? Charge a monthly commission fee, which should help the forum be self-reliant and maybe if going gets good let the forum expand to a larger database :)

We could, provided JJ Mehta was in the business of selling Tobacco instead of Cameras  ;). Of course that is my opinion and not of the Mehtas.

[aces170]

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

Why dont you start a dealers section separately? Charge a monthly commission fee, which should help the forum be self-reliant and maybe if going gets good let the forum expand to a larger database :)

[Tornado]

Thanks a lot..!! This seller was trying to sell me few items, and I knew that he is doing some business out here or something.. So I ignored him :)