JJMehta Photography Forum

Hello Forum.

In response to Membership requests we have initiated two sticky threads for Member Feedback within the Buy and Sell Forum.

This one, FROWNS, is for feedback for transactions which did not go so well.

Members who choose to participate in this thread are required to write only a brief, civil, matter of fact report about their transaction, identifying the Member with whom they were involved, but in no wise using profanity, disparaging names, or otherwise attacking the other participant's person. One must simply state transaction facts, observations of how things went, and an opinion of how they should have gone. That's it. Facts.

Readers of this thread will be left to draw their own conclusions from stated facts, without emotionally charged sentiments fogging a clear understanding of the situation.

This process will be monitored by the Moderators to assure that it adds value for the Membership. Posts of an uncivil quality will be removed without comment.

Update, September 18, 2013: In order to keep this thread as useful and concise as possible, comments which do not add pertinent facts are subject to be removed.

:)

Just a small appeal.

Now the Christmas and new year are near, there will be a tremendous pressure on the postal department including the courier service companies.  So many of us who buy the things may not receive it in time.  While the seller would have dispatched  it promptly, due to clogging of the posts, there may  be inordinate delay in delivery of the material you've purchased.  While the sellers informs you that he has already dispatched the material you may not receive in time and it may some time lead to frustration, doubts and friction.  So it would be a natural reaction to rush here and put a feedback on the seller.  Any negative feedback on the seller will have an impact on him which can not be repaired later on. 
So my humble request is to understand that there may be delays in the postal and courier services and in-spite of the best efforts of the seller you may not receive the dispatched article in time.  So IMHO it would be better to exercise a little restraint until the middle of January regarding non delivery of purchased article in time.

Though this is not an essential feed back, I felt I should share this with you.

Regards
Ashok.

Hello Ashok.

Thanks for the input. Character assassination is not a desired result here. Of course, anyone placing critical comments here should weigh them very, very carefully beforehand. And if one later sees that he is wrong and has spoken wrongly, he should straightway remove his post for the same and set the record straight. Otherwise, his own integrity is in question.

We are on new ground here. We will have to work together to make sure this process works for the benefit of the Membership, without causing undue harm to anyone. In that let us appeal for a collaborative, carefully calculated approach with only clearheaded, totally fair thinking.

:)

Hi,

I guess, i'll be the first one here too!!  :-[

only ONE member feedback to report here.

Dr. Abheek Ghosh from Nagpur ( user name of jjmpf - Abheekg (http://abheekg)http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=504 (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=504)

Dateline : around 7th Aug 2009 to 13th Oct 2009

History :

Dr. Abheek Ghosh had posted about a 77mm CPL for sale - as good as new, excellent condition et all.

I was interested as had recently gotten a 10-20 mm lens and was searching for a CPL.

Sent him a mail and also spoke to him a couple of times, sent out the funds. Deal was fixed for Rs.1500. Transferred the funds to him on 10th August. Didnt receive any confirmatory message from his side so sent him a mail with my address.

Got the CPL around 18th Aug, to my horror, the film on the edges was worn out and there was a fungus like growth on it.

I sent a mail to him on 19th August attaching closeup pics of the CPL with the defects. We discussed and i told him that i was sending the CPL back. The CPL was sent back the same day. The receipt of which he never acknowledged.

Then the followup for getting my refund started. I even raised this gently on the forum - in his post for sale of the CPL, stating awaiting your response. He immediately asked for my account details by pm on around 10th of Sept 2009 and i reverted on the same.

But from 18th August to 10th of Sept it was folowup for a response and then on till 13th Oct 2009, i got no reply from his side. I repeatedly called and my calls went unanswered. Even my mails did not elicit any response.

After more than 2 months, I gave up  >:(.

I have a mail sequence of events for the above. If any member wants to read it, shall gladly post it.

I have had exemplary purchase deals of seemingly meaningless value of Rs.200 also, so this was quite a experience.

Request to mods to please modify / delete whatever content / post found inappropriate.

Moderator Note:
Seller's account has been blocked.

Hi,

  I am Arun (forum handle: thelightening). I have to share an experience about a person called Karthik (Infantblue) from Chennai.

  Based on this advertisment http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=8991.0  , I have called this person up and talked to him about the product he is interested to sell. Based on several calls and PM's we agreed for a price of 3000Rs. He clearly mentioned to me that, he is not interested to courier or ship this to Bangalore from his place, Chennai.

Based on this, I tried all the way and at last found a friends collegue, who used to go to Chennai frequently and requested him with the help of my friend to meet infantblue and complete the deal. It was soo hard to make him agree to get these things done, as its a business deal. Based on the arrangement, I have sent infant blue a detailed mail with all the contact details of mine, my friend and his collegue, then about the lens and everything. That single mail was enough to understand the professionalism of a business deal.

I have handed over the money to my friend collegue even to buy this. I called infantblue a lot of time and he didnt pick, but replied with some 1-2 sms about the confirmations. He told he will meet the guy coming from Bangalore and handover the stuffs.

This is on wed (20th april) , today morning (21Apr), I have got an sms from Karthik (infantblue) as follows;

"Hey, One of my friend is desperate to buy my lens for 3500. Anyway as it is only four thousand there in bang, I believe its not an issue with you, I am extremely sorry"

I am taking this as a kind of cheating and the efforts, calls, PM's what we made and agreed is of no value. Rs 500 is great??? If then he might have not committed for 3000Rs at all.

I have did a lot of transactions with other jjmf members , even after receiving the money in the evening in my account, went out , bought packing materials, packed and shipped before courier guy close his store.... I feel thats commitment. Not this one, at least for 500Rs.

Thats the reason why I am sharing my experience over here and it will help my jjmf forum members. Thanks for your patience to read my whole experience. Hope it helps.

Moderator Note:
It is the judgment of the Moderators that a meeting of the minds between buyer and seller took place. Therefore, a contract was in force, and the same contract was violated by the seller. The seller's account has been blocked, and his thread has been removed.

Hi.

I wish to share something about a member "Roger H. Ephraim".

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6714

On 31st May, 2011, he posted an advertisement here offering 2 hard drives and a casing. Later on, moderators removed the listing because these items are not allowed in JJMPF. But before that I has started communication with Roger.

After exchanging few mails, he offered me a price for all 3 things, I accepted without any negotiation.

Neft timings were over for the day, so I could not transfer the money on 31st and I told him that he can pack the things and I will transfer the funds on 1st June.

I transfer the funds on 1st June (11:05 AM) and sent him an email with details and screenshots of transfer made which he did not reply.

After waiting till evening I sent him an SMS at 06:47 PM and he replied back that he has packed and scheduled the parcel for pickup.

After that I have sent various SMSs/emails asking for courier details/tracking number, but he did not reply.

SMS   02-Jun-2011 01:48 PM   No reply
SMS   02-Jun-2011 08:36 PM   No reply
SMS   03-Jun-2011 04:11 PM   No reply
Email   04-Jun-2011 04:47 PM   Replied mentioning health problem but assured that he has arranged for courier pickup.
Email   07-Jun-2011 07:56 PM   No reply Replied mentioning health problem but already copy+paste error
SMS   08-Jun-2011 11:30 AM   No reply

Finally, yesterday, 8th June 08:09 PM, I sent him an email with my bank details and I asked him to refund my money because I have already bought the hard disk after so much waiting.

But he still didn't answer and didn't refund.

It is ok if someone is in a problem but one can reply at least. I have been seeing his profile and he almost daily logs in JJMPF but does not reply my email/SMS.

His phone is also switched off now which was working at the time of making the payment.

Any suggestions guys?

Regards,
Mg.


Moderator Notes:

1. This issue was resolved to the buyer's satisfaction as of June 22. It appears that, in part, extenuating health issues complicated and delayed the process. A timely resolution, such as a reasonable buyer might normally expect, did not materialize. Further elaboration of, or discussion about, the delayed conclusion is now deemed unnecessary.  In order to keep this thread concise and useful to the Membership, follow-on commentary and discussions about this now-resolved issue have been removed.

2. The products offered were in violation of the Rules for Buy & Sell. The seller was unaware of this. The casual reader is not to interpret this situation as acceptable precedence for the sale or purchase of computer parts and accessories on JJMPF. Such is strictly forbidden. See Rules 2a and 2b for details.

Hi Fellow Members,

I would like to share one more bitter experience I got from a newbie, Amit2008.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=10744.0
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=10740.0

I contacted the person, so called Amit Ghosh for buying his Canon 55-250 IS lens @ an agreed price. Since he was not picking calls, a lot of sms communications happend in a day. Around 40 to and fro sms communications. He agreed to selld me the lens and posted in the thread and confirm the booking and will send you the pics before tonight .. happy deal......

I have arranged the money from different ways, since its month end and waited for the pics till night 12am, keeping money ready in my account to transfer.

In short of the communications are as follows.

----------------------------------------------

Amit, Thanks for all your sms... and confusions. Thanks for not picking any of my calls even. After several sms communications happened yesterday, you were suppose to send me pics by night. I have asked u the pics a lot of times in the night.. u didnt reply.. today morning, again after a lot of sms from my end.. I got a reply from you saying that...

" 8.24AM   rethinking my decision to sell the lens"

Again I replied in an sms, about how i arranged money and can u tell me in final whether you are interested in a deal or not

For that I got your reply as

" 9.54AM I am interested "

Again I asked you to send me the pics asap, since you cannot use the Canon 55-250 IS on Nikon, since you mentioned that you are moving to Nikon from Canon. I tried calling u a lot here and you cut my call.

Then you sent me an sms like this

" 10.23AM see i m rethinking. actually this is a solid lens perform much better in low light than sigma 120-400 of mine. so i just hold it for sometime before my camera 450D get sold. please"

I replied saying I am confused. Are u selling the lens to me or not? if then money ready with me now to transfer. And requested to take my call to talk and clear communications. you cut my call here too..

Then you replied

" 10.29AM  I am not selling you. thanks"

The last message of yours seems to be interesting...  Thats means you are selling to someone, not to me right?

Since you are moving from Canon to Nikon, whats the headache you have about the solidarity of your Canon 55-250 IS lens...

This seller backed out... after around 40 sms communications and confirmation.

--------------------------------------------------------------

This is his last post in the respective thread.... :)

Quote from: amit2008 on July 01, 2011, 10:52:54 AM
The product is of mine. I can take any decision of my own item any time - even on the verge of delivery.

But i must say - you are excellent - what a detailed SMS report you prepared....Everybody should clap please......

Excuse me - i think - i come to wrong place and to some wrong people....

Thanks,

Amit

Nice experience I have got, lucky even after the seller asked me to transfer money to his account so that he can send me the lens before weekend.. i insisted for pics.. God is there...

Moderator Note:
It is unfortunate that this problem could not have been cleared up to the satisfaction of the buyer and seller. At the seller's request, his JJMPF account has been removed. Related threads have also been removed.

The account "suvo" has been banned. This was for willful and serious misrepresentation of a product sold on JJMPF, and for refusal to set right  the wrongdoing. This action was taken in accordance with the requirements prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

Regards/Moderators

Quote from: Image on July 16, 2011, 09:11:19 AM
The account "suvo" has been banned. This was for willful and serious misrepresentation of a product sold on JJMPF, and for refusal to set right  the wrongdoing. This action was taken in accordance with the requirements prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

Regards/Moderators

To all Fellow JJMF members  - 

Let me share my experience with the above user Suvo [ Suvo Datta from Kolkata ]  on purchasing the Nikon F Photomic FTn which he claimed in his post as fully functional - 10/10   [ http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=10640.0. ]  .

Knowing that these old horses are difficult to repair , I had several telephonic discussions primarily around the metering capability of the camera . At no point he indicated any deficiency of the metering system and even confirmed the metering accuracy is comparable to the nikon F he posseses  - reason for sale being  his inablity to work with complete manual focus system .

We agreed to a sale price of 11K including shipping charges and I received the parcel soon . I was surprised to notice that the in-viewfinder metering capability is missing .The same day I called him again and he said he never knew of such feature in FTn finder and such capability only exists from Nikon F2 onwards [ as per the post , camera was purchased in 1979 and regularly used till 2008 !!! ]

Later I took the camera to Mr.Thomas and found the finder to be non-repairable .The missing VF-meter is due to replacement of original nikon prism inside the finder in some earlier repair of the finder. When confronted the seller,  he acknowledged the same had been told  to him by another well reputed repair house Latif Precision Service @ kolkata and he was advised not to touch the prism suspecting further damage  . He also said he had taken it to Latif before posting it for sell and stll believed it was 100% operational !

I requested for a refund for the misrepresented camera which in my opinion , is definitely not 100% functional as claimed  and offered to bear the cost of shipment . He even refused to accept the fact the camera was not 10/10 functional stating it had served his purpose 100% from the time  it was purchased  and also reminded me about the no-refund condition in his post .

I hereby request to all members to pay attention to such carefully crafted , hyped up SELL posts which conceals major features , misleads the reader about the basic functionalities expected and uses this forum to one's own advantage .

When one entry pops up in the FROWNS thread, we should think that the value in human ethics is being coming down. Especially in our forum

As a member, my understanding here is, the buy and sell thread is to help the members than to create issue for the members.

We JJMF forum members are seeing this forum as a market now than an informative forum to discuss about "PHOTOGRAPHY". A lot of new people are joining per day, just to sell something and go off, which is terribly bad when compared to the aim of this forum.

So as a fellow member, my humble request are the following;

1.   Before you decide to sell any of your stuffs and before posting your [WTS] thread, think twice or thrice and do a proper market analysis.
2.   Please decide a good price tag, which will help u as well as the buyer in all means. Please stick to your words on your price tag, than hanging around bids.
3.   Please don't hesitate to post the details of your stuff in detail and if you know any issues are there the same, please be courageous to come forward and to mention the same in your thread.
4.   Please read the rules and regulations by the moderators first, before posting any of your [WTS] or [WTB] requirement. The rules and regulations are for our own safety and security.
5.   Please think in such a way that, this is not a market place to sell all your used stuffs or to buy in cheap. This buy and sell option is available here for us. If its removed, I am sure a lot of members will vanish from this forum immediately.
6.   We are a family from different part of the globe and we are here to discuss about our passion "Photography" and to share our thoughts.
7.   For Newbie's, I am sure, this is a nice forum to find the right answers you are looking for. Even there are seniors and professional photographers in our forum to advice you, why can't we use the same?
8.   Be humble and sincere to you first, then on all the activities we do here in our forum.
9.   Please use the facilities here as per the requirement and please don't think that the "buy and sell" thread is not the place to dispose all your junk items, which can't be used at all. 
10.    The last request as a fellow member is, be proud and stick to your words and enjoy the forum.

I am sorry here, if any of my statements hurt anyone. I met same kind of incidence twice during my Lens Hunting and I left my idea. So I understand the pain. 

(http://www.quixoticpixels.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/soapbox-285x300.jpg)

;) Thanks Arun - the Rules and Regulations are very clear.

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

Quote from: Image on August 05, 2011, 02:18:33 AM
It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

Still a new post from jhtnakirs

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=11602.0

Quote from: Image on August 05, 2011, 02:18:33 AM
It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

I love this forum. Hats off.

Thanks a lot..!! This seller was trying to sell me few items, and I knew that he is doing some business out here or something.. So I ignored him :)

QuoteIt is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

Why dont you start a dealers section separately? Charge a monthly commission fee, which should help the forum be self-reliant and maybe if going gets good let the forum expand to a larger database :)

Quote from: aces170 on August 11, 2011, 07:21:11 PM

QuoteIt is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member htnakirs of Calicut has been operating a personal business using the JJMPF Buy & Sell board as part of a multi-website virtual storefront for buying/selling/brokering camera equipment of assorted brands and types. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 15.

No further enquiries and any special comments from any member on this issue will be entertained.

Regards/Moderators.

Why dont you start a dealers section separately? Charge a monthly commission fee, which should help the forum be self-reliant and maybe if going gets good let the forum expand to a larger database :)

We could, provided JJ Mehta was in the business of selling Tobacco instead of Cameras  ;). Of course that is my opinion and not of the Mehtas.

QuoteWe could, provided JJ Mehta was in the business of selling Tobacco instead of Cameras  ;). Of course that is my opinion and not of the Mehtas.

Darn, forgot about that :P

Hello Sahil.

QuoteWhy don't you start a dealers section separately? Charge a monthly commission fee, which should help the forum be self-reliant and maybe if going gets good let the forum expand to a larger database :)

This is because Buy & Sell is a service created for the purposes of:

1. JJMPF Members exchanging photographic gear which they have used, for money.

2. JJMPF Members exchanging photographic gear which they have used for other Members' photographic gear which they want to use.

3. JJMPF Members exchanging money for other Members' photographic gear which they want to use.

4. Combinations of the above.

The idea of it taking on the qualities of a yard sale, a Sunday boot/trunk sale, a me-too eBay contender, or anything else with a pecuniary business angle to it is outside of the scope and purpose of the board.

The present setup is also an accurate and clear representation of the Forum's owner/Administrator's wishes with respect to how photographic equipment is to be bought and sold on JJMPF. The board is for Members, but not for dealers outside of JJMPF. It is for Members' personal gear which they have used themselves, and not a service to the marketplace at large.

Dealers/vendors of used gear have plenty of other places to spread their wares without parasitically attaching themselves to JJMPF as part of their electronic storefronts for unknown quality and questionable integrity. Those who would hawk "God only knows what" which came from "Heaven only knows where," wrapped in lies like "selling for a friend," have no place here.  Such dubious peddlers are not welcome in the JJMPF Buy & Sell Board, plain and simple.

Members can reasonably expect two things to be true when they click on the JJMPF Buy & Sell Board: 1. The gear offered is primarily and fundamentally photographic in its nature, and 2. It is gear which was owned and used by a Member or a close friend of the Member, and which friend the Member is willing to stand in for to assure integrity and quality in the deal.

:)

Henry

Quotewrapped in lies like "selling for a friend,"

A lot of newbies on their first post itself put up a sale for their friends, verifying it would be a herculean task is,nt it.I for one would never sell for a friend because it is hard to know how he or she use their equipment on their own.The only thing one can truly vouch for is their friends integrity & honesty.Non the less one should not stop members from buying good used equipment.
Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit(3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15.It will put a safeguard atleast.I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing(yes including myself,I have bought a canon 60D from this forum).
Atleast some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay.
Regards
Francis

Quote from: Francis on August 20, 2011, 09:56:46 AM
Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit(3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15.It will put a safeguard atleast.I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing(yes including myself,I have bought a canon 60D from this forum).
Atleast some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay.
Regards
Francis

Francis, if u see the posts before, I already have suggested this idea, but its not possible to handle it seems, so mods replied that its not possible :(.

Most of the newbies here will join jjmf for selling or buying something... their first post majorly will be in buy&sell :)

Hello Francis.

Thanks for your ideas and input.

Quote... A lot of newbies on their first post itself put up a sale for their friends, verifying it would be a herculean task isn't it.

Presently, any Member of JJMPF can sell equipment of his own which he has used, or occasionally sell equipment belonging to (and used by) a friend. Members should be ever mindful that newbies with no track record may or may not be credible. And, for that matter, experience has shown us that tenure is no guarantee of integrity in Buy & Sell either. It just gives the Members more data points from which to evaluate sellers and buyers.

QuoteI for one would never sell for a friend because it is hard to know how he or she use their equipment on their own. The only thing one can truly vouch for is their friends integrity & honesty. Non the less one should not stop members from buying good used equipment.

Well, if the Member isn't willing to stand in 100% for the owner and product to assure the quality of the deal, then he shouldn't sell for that friend.

If the seller is a vendor, trader, buyer, seller, broker or anyone else who has a profit motive as an on-going mode of operation, then he will not be allowed to conduct his business on JJMPF. His access will be blocked and his account will be removed. If JJMPF Members want to conduct business with such people as trade in camera gear, or in anything else, they will have to go elsewhere to manage their transactions with those businesses.

QuoteJust a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit (3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15. It will put a safeguard at least.

The minimum post scheme can be easily defeated. As before mentioned above, even tenure is no assurance of integrity. To the point of a prerequisite "three month's Membership in good standing," it may seem like a helpful idea on the surface. However, anyone looking at a post can see what the seller Member's tenure is. Seems to me like he could just decide that he isn't going to buy from anyone with less than, say six month's tenure. That way, each buyer Member can take his own decision about how much tenure is acceptable to himself, and how much risk he is willing to entertain.

QuoteI am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing (yes including myself, I have bought a Canon 60D from this forum). At least some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay. ... Regards, Francis

The very best safeguard is prudent judgement on the part of the Members participating in the Buy & Sell Forum. Beyond that, and working together, we can assure that the Buy & Sell Rules are adhered to.  This will go a long way toward keeping the damage to our fellow JJMPF Members from riff-raff at a minimum.

:)

Hello everyone,
I recently bought a Nikon SB 600 flash from member "Gurmeet" based on his post in the Buy and Sell Section:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=13884.0 (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=13884.0)

Depending on his description of the item as 'mint' condition, and on a superficial examination of his posted pictures in that post, it seemed like a good deal.

I contacted him on the given number and he assured me that the condition was 'mint' and to hurry if I wanted the item as 'three others were interested' in the same.

Consequently, I paid Rs. 8500 plus Rs. 350 (shipping cost) =  Rs. 8850 to his bank account. Nothing happened for a few days. I contacted him and got him to send it finally.

To his credit, it was well packed and there was absolutely no sign of damage to the parcel while in transit and I opened the package in front of the courier guy and there was no external damage to the flash either.

The flash, however, was not in a mint condition. It was well used. There was a screw missing on the underside of the head (for reference see my post in the thread above) – suggesting that the flash unit had been repaired by a non-professional at least once.

I put in fresh batteries waited for the 'ready' yellow light to come on and pressed the 'test fire' button. A faint click and the 'ready' button blinked...no flash output.
Put the flash on my D90, clicked the shutter button..no flash.

I tried the zoom which was working. The LCD was also working. Did a reset and tried again with no results.

In short the flash was DOA.

I called up Mr. Gurmeet and told him that the flash was not firing. He suggested that the flash tube may have got damaged in transit!! (Instant Diagnosis!! How did he know it was a flash tube problem immediately, when other members needed more details from me to come to the same conclusion?).

Moreover, given the nature of the packing and the absence of any sign of external damage to the packing or the flash, I thought it extremely unlikely that the flash had got 'damaged' in transit.

But I still was willing to give him the benefit of doubt and continued discussion with him.

After some more discussion, he said he would repair the flash if I sent it to him. I agreed.
Half an hour later he seems to have changed his mind and sent me a one line email with the words "No return policy".

After getting this jolt, I tried to contact him many times – he either cut my calls or did not pick up, smsed him -  no response, emailed him -  no response.

Finally I put up a message to him on his sell thread asking him for a solution. He did not respond to that too for a couple of days. Meanwhile many members posted in that thread about the situation and the need for Mr. Gurmeet to take responsibility for his product.

After a couple of days, he responded sketchily, refusing to accept any responsibility for the flash and refusing to make amends.

I then made enquiries locally and ascertained that the repair cost, if it was a flash tube problem only would be around Rs. 1500. I then posted a message asking Mr. Gurmeet to re-imburse at least this amount. I emailed him the same message.

He refused, now asking him to send it back to him for repair. But given his attitude shown so far, I was not prepared to take the risk of sending it back to him. What if the flash got "damaged" again in transit? He said his role would end after sending the flash back after "repair".

Since he was not prepared to take any responsibility for his actions I am now posting this in the "FROWNS" thread to warn other members not to deal with Mr. Gurmeet in future.

I am convinced that he has willfully misrepresented the state of his flash as mint, whereas it is not mint at all. When the said flash arrived DOA, and he was confronted with the issue, he did not communicate any caring whatsoever for the buyer or for the product that he had sold.

In case he is banned and he rejoins this forum under some other name, I am posting his details too here:

Name: Gurmeet Singh
Address:
Studio Photogenic
Light Chowk, Near fly over
Kotkapura-151204
Dist: Faridkot,
Punjab
Phone number:  9216728176
Email: sarujai@rediffmail.com
Bank: HDFC
Account Number: 0648*******949 (partial number for obvious security reasons)

Thank you,
Rocky
PS: (Edited on 2nd December 2011)
I got the flash repaired at a good shop with an original Nikon Flash Tube for which I was charged Rs. 1350. The scan copy of the bill is attached.
I emailed the seller "gurmeet" and made him a very fair offer. Since it would cost me Rs 350 to send the flash to him for repair, I offered to deduct that amount from the bill and asked him to refund just Rs. 1000. (Even if I had sent the flash to him for repair as he wanted, he would have incurred Rs. 600 for repair - by his own admission - and another Rs. 350 for courier back to me after repair. So he would not lose anything by my offer.

PS 2: (Edited on 6th December 2011)
The seller emailed me denying any intention to defraud and agreed to partially reimburse the cost of repair as I offered him above.
He has refunded Rs. 1000 as his restitution.
Miracles do happen!! :)

Fellow Members,

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member "gurmeet" of Punjab has willfully misrepresented a product offered in Buy & Sell. Numerous fair and patiently presented attempts to encourage an amicable solution to the problem have failed. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

No further inquiries, nor any special comments from any Member on this issue will be entertained by the Moderators.

wrt  "http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,19269.0.html"

mukeshkhatri_ind  -  A buyer who bargained with me for more than 3-4 days to buy my 70-200 F/4 Lens offline. Even though I was sticking to my price, after multiple bargaining chat sessions, at last I agreed to the price he quoted, 34k (including the freebies, tripod collar and UV filter worth 1500Rs), based on which he requested me whether I can accept or cheque or not. Since I was not interested in any cheque deals, buyer agreed to do a fund transfer by yesterday (01 Jun) night or a direct cash deal today (02 Jun) noon.  He specifically requested me to consider my sale as booked and agree to mention the same in my sales threads. I have re-confirmed this two times and updated my WTS thread .

As per agreement both buyer and seller was suppose to meet today ( 02 Jun) noon. By 13:47pm today, buyer sms'ed me saying in some local stores (fotocircle) the prices are less(37k) and is not 41k.. so want to sit over and discuss about the same. As a seller I replied that, there is no changes possible in our agreement and its the same price as u negotiated.  Buyer sent me an another sms asking whats the brand of my tripod collar. I started feeling a bit awkward here, as we have fixed everything and the deal is agreed with all details for some price. I called the buyer and explained again. By the time buyer called the dealer from which I have bought the stuffs. So I feel a kind of untrustworthy here and said the rates we discussed are final and not interested to carry on any kind of re-bargaining.

Buyer backed out !!!

I personally feel this, not as a genuine step in a deal which the seller has agreed to the price by the buyer after hard bargaining everyday on multiple chat sessions. At last I agreed to the price negotiated by the buyer and marked the item booked. 

So would like to raise a caution on this member.

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

Quote from: Infantarian on June 12, 2012, 11:40:19 AM
I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

Another side of a coin.

Quote from: Infantarian on June 12, 2012, 11:40:19 AM
Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

There is no negativity from seller here, even i would have done the same thing(if people quote amazon prices), you should possibly think of shipping costs+customs issues before uttering something to the seller. Ultimately, no buyer is doing a favor for seller by buying his equipment. Most people cant judge humor in pings(including me  ;))

Quote from: neocore on June 14, 2012, 12:47:50 PM

Quote from: Infantarian on June 12, 2012, 11:40:19 AM
Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

There is no negativity from seller here, even i would have done the same thing(if people quote amazon prices), you should possibly think of shipping costs+customs issues before uttering something to the seller. Ultimately, no buyer is doing a favor for seller by buying his equipment. Most people cant judge humor in pings(including me  ;))

I will second what Neocore said , how do i judge someone is just asking it humorously or is a lowballer trying to get the item cheap. I would give benefit of doubt here to the seller as he might have already received lot of comments from Lowballers ! I faced this situation every time it tried to sell anything, even after posting fix price.

And Infantarian - Its note a joke when you don't take into account some of the cost neocore indicated. If a seller has a firm price that doesnt mean his attitude is negative. In online forums when we talk through text i find no way to tell peoples attitude through their messages.

Quote from: Infantarian on June 12, 2012, 11:40:19 AM
I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

I am with the seller on this one. Probably a bit harsh reaction TBH but I too would have felt quite offended if someone is quoting amazon prices while I have bought the bag from India where its much more expensive than what its sold for in the US.

thelightening said:

QuoteI personally feel this, not as a genuine step in a deal which the seller has agreed to the price by the buyer after hard bargaining everyday on multiple chat sessions. At last I agreed to the price negotiated by the buyer and marked the item booked. ... So would like to raise a caution on this member.

It appears that a verbal contract between JJMPF Members was in place at the moment the deal was struck and the price was agreed to by the seller, and as requested by the buyer.

Violation of a verbal contract is a violation of the Rules within the JJMPF Buy & Sell Forum.

Caution with regard to Member mukeshkhatri_ind is well advised, IMO. Integrity is not just something; it's everything.

 I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner? Can't he politely say that, " sorry, I can't give you at that price", instead of saying "Go, take a hike"? How difficult is that? Are we becoming too insensitive when we have to sell some stuff? What happens if you guys go  to a shop and when you try to bargain and then shop-keeper tells you to get lost? Won't you guys feel offended and probably even stop buying from that seller? Then why when another buyer asks for some bargain (and in this case it was not even bargain) then we suddenly loose our cool and shoo away the buyer with such harsh words? I really don't think that shows the right attitude and I'm very much in agree with what Infantarian did. Anyway, everyone to his own.
Regards,

Quote from: kaushik_s on June 19, 2012, 02:39:20 AM
I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner? Can't he politely say that, " sorry, I can't give you at that price", instead of saying "Go, take a hike"? How difficult is that? Are we becoming too insensitive when we have to sell some stuff? What happens if you guys go  to a shop and when you try to bargain and then shop-keeper tells you to get lost? Won't you guys feel offended and probably even stop buying from that seller? Then why when another buyer asks for some bargain (and in this case it was not even bargain) then we suddenly loose our cool and shoo away the buyer with such harsh words? I really don't think that shows the right attitude and I'm very much in agree with what Infantarian did. Anyway, everyone to his own.
Regards,

Hi Kaushik, if you have ever dealt with low ballers you will know how most sellers feel. They are very rude in trying to reduce your price and frankly no one can tell the difference between sarcasm, rudeness or politeness from an online text. I have dealt with low ballers extensively with my very first sale in JJM and frankly its hardened my heart towards anybody doing excessive bargaining.

Quoting amazon prices is a very common tactic for low ballers to try and reduce the price. I had one joker you practically gave me an ultimatum saying "see this camera is priced at $200 used which is like 10k in India and its condition is better than yours so ill pay you max 9k. Take it or leave it as you won't get a better offer."

I don't see any rationale in quoting an amazon/bhphoto price when the item in question is going to cost a LOT more after customs and shipping. So unless the person is quoting an INDIAN website with items within India then you are trying to mislead an individual by making it seem that your prices are very high.

I have once quoted a price for a product and a buyer showed me a link where it was cheaper for a brand new item IN INDIA. So I accepted my mistake and reduced the price accordingly and sold it to him.

And IMO its not correct to compare a shop to an individual trying to get rid of his gear. A shop makes a profit from each sale and customers are generally plenty.

An individual trying to sell off his gear is making a loss each and every time (except for a few people who deliberately buy low priced stuff to see for higher prices and make a profit). So the individuals prerogative is to reduce the loss as much as possible.

I agree that the persons response to Infantarian was very rude and while I don't agree to his reaction I can very well understand what the seller is going through.

Well, Bendon, I would agree that with some irritating low-ballers who would repeatedly bug you, retorting like that would be the only option left. I also had my share of experience with them and yes those experiences were not very pleasant. But I don't think it's acceptable that when anyone just refers to Amazon (may be in jest in this case) then one should always put that person also in the same basket. If someone repeatedly keep on pushing you then you probably have the option to snap back or just plainly ignore those low-ballers. You yourself said that some low-ballers are very rude and you don't like the way they portray themselves. Then why should you as a seller also become like that to someone else who is not a low-baller but genuinely asking?

About the shop/commercial establishment analogy, yes I think it's  more prudent for them to be polite. And as we expect them to be polite then why can't we also be like what we want others to be? That too to another fellow photographer and someone from the same fraternity (except those really irritating low-ballers but someone quoting Amazon once doesn't mean that he/she is a low-baller. I hope you'ld agree with that). I'm not telling people to be polite when the other person is rude like the person you've encountered. But one shouldn't be prejudiced always that anyone who wants to bargain a bit or quotes Amazon price sometimes are all in the same league.

And also when an user sells his used item, I don't think we think about loss in monetary term unless it's really huge. But think about the good time you had while using that item and now you are selling it at a value which you feel is right with the present condition of the item. And to be frank, nowadays the prices of the new items (photography related) have gone so high that most of the time one would end up selling it for the same price that he has bought even after using it for years. Anyway, it's a different topic all together and perceptions can vary from person to person. :)

When it clearly states under the Buy & Sell category that 'JJMehta has no control over this board' I think the mods need not interfere there. It's great to have stickies like the Grins and Frowns but expecting mods or even if the mods on their own accord should not involve themselves. It is a photo forum for a lot of things besides the Buy & Sell. That category is to make it easy within the forum/community but at the end it is Caveat Emptor. The buyer has to do this due diligence and if he ignores a few red flags on a deal well that's how he'll get it right the next time.

Also any seller may get away with 1 bad transaction beyond that there won't be the opportunity cause JJMPF has a lot of vigilant members constantly monitoring the B&S section... :)

Quote from: Brendon on June 19, 2012, 02:35:53 PM

Quote from: kaushik_s on June 19, 2012, 02:39:20 AM
I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner?

Hi Kaushik, if you have ever dealt with low ballers you will know how most sellers feel. They are very rude in trying to reduce your price and frankly no one can tell the difference between sarcasm, rudeness or politeness from an online text. I have dealt with low ballers extensively with my very first sale in JJM and frankly its hardened my heart towards anybody doing excessive bargaining.

..

+1, I recently came across at least two buyers who seems to be using this technique, quoting keh.com price despite of making it clear that I was not interested in negotiating. One buyer went ahead with even a cheap technique, posted a buy listing of same item with description of 'what would be the reasonable' price.  Now this was not the case here but I can understand if Kata seller was rude.

Quote from: yusuf on June 19, 2012, 09:20:35 PM

Quote from: Brendon on June 19, 2012, 02:35:53 PM

Quote from: kaushik_s on June 19, 2012, 02:39:20 AM
I don't understand why the seller should get offended if someone quotes Amazon (or B&H or anything) price. Why the seller has to take it personally and retort in somewhat uncalled for manner?

Hi Kaushik, if you have ever dealt with low ballers you will know how most sellers feel. They are very rude in trying to reduce your price and frankly no one can tell the difference between sarcasm, rudeness or politeness from an online text. I have dealt with low ballers extensively with my very first sale in JJM and frankly its hardened my heart towards anybody doing excessive bargaining.

..

+1, I recently came across at least two buyers who seems to be using this technique, quoting keh.com price despite of making it clear that I was not interested in negotiating. One buyer went ahead with even a cheap technique, posted a buy listing of same item with description of 'what would be the reasonable' price.  Now this was not the case here but I can understand if Kata seller was rude.

How do you understand what is rude or not or what is in good humour???
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon >:(
...then buy from amazon ;D
...then buy from amazon ;)
...then buy from amazon :-\

Please dont judge from what it appears in written words...with these smiles now i think you can interpret in 5-6 ways. And your interpretation may depend on what mood you were in while reading these lines (without a simile).

Please respect when someone writes NON NEGOTIABLE

Price debate etc, if necessary can be done by PM with the seller.

Classic samples, Rishi.
Now if only you could put together a similar list for "Your price is too high!!" (to be sent as a pm only, obviously), this could be the start of a whole new language on the Buy and Sell subforum.
:)

For my 1.7 TC, one guy, dug out it will only work with f/2.8 lens
and not with f/4 lens, as he will loose auto focus !

I replied, "What should I do about that ?"

End of discussion !  ;D

When someone clearly writes "Non Negotiable", why should you even try negotiating over PM ?
and risk getting told off !

If his item is not sold it's the seller's problem. If he steps down to "Negotiable" at a later date
then negotiate !

Quote from: kumarrishi on June 19, 2012, 09:46:48 PM


How do you understand what is rude or not or what is in good humour???
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon >:(
...then buy from amazon ;D
...then buy from amazon ;)
...then buy from amazon :-\

Please dont judge from what it appears in written words...with these smiles now i think you can interpret in 5-6 ways. And your interpretation may depend on what mood you were in while reading these lines (without a simile).

Exactly, then how can you distinguish between,
Amazon is having a better price ;)
  Amazon is having a better price :P
Amazon is having a better price  >:(
  Amazon is having a better price :o

and judge that the seller is another low-life low-baller and not a genuine buyer. I'm simply trying to say that if someone just asks for a discount or whatever (before getting annoyingly persistent on bargaining) then there are ways to say no in a polite manner than to be rude and tell the person to buzz off. If that's not clear or it's too tough for one to be polite before taking out the guns and daggers then I've nothing more to say. I rest my case here. And BTW, we are not even talking about sells with "No Negotiation" clause, so please keep that aside.
Regards,

Quote from: Sachn on June 19, 2012, 04:34:26 PM
When it clearly states under the Buy & Sell category that 'JJMehta has no control over this board' I think the mods need not interfere there. It's great to have stickies like the Grins and Frowns but expecting mods or even if the mods on their own accord should not involve themselves. It is a photo forum for a lot of things besides the Buy & Sell. That category is to make it easy within the forum/community but at the end it is Caveat Emptor. The buyer has to do this due diligence and if he ignores a few red flags on a deal well that's how he'll get it right the next time.

Also any seller may get away with 1 bad transaction beyond that there won't be the opportunity cause JJMPF has a lot of vigilant members constantly monitoring the B&S section... :)

This may come as a bit of a surprise to some Members, but originally the Mods tried to avoid having rules in Buy & Sell. We are all friends here, and we are adults, after all.  After some unchecked misbehavior within the Buy & Sell board in 2009, a spirited suggestion from Kartik, the Administrator/Owner of JJMPF, resulted in the Mods' creation of the Rules and their subsequent and rigorous enforcement.

Whenever the Moderators see that Members of the JJMPF are being harmed, or could be harmed, by any activity or mode of operation within Buy & Sell, or elsewhere on JJMPF, they will take action as they see appropriate in order to maintain fairness, civility, and compliance with the Rules and their underlying intent. The Rules are clear and they must be enforced.

Nevertheless, the Moderators cannot replace individual responsibility for buyers and sellers to vet and otherwise qualify the prospective Members with whom they choose to exchange photo gear and money. It is indeed their responsibility to take great caution in making those choices. In fact, the Rules say as much.

Those who have not yet taken time to read through the Rules sticky should do it.

:)

Henry,
So great, there is control on the B&S section. I think Karthik needs to update the description of the B&S section the next time.

Sachin.

Quote from: kumarrishi on June 19, 2012, 09:46:48 PM


How do you understand what is rude or not or what is in good humour???
...then buy from amazon
...then buy from amazon >:(
...then buy from amazon ;D
...then buy from amazon ;)
...then buy from amazon :-\

Please dont judge from what it appears in written words...with these smiles now i think you can interpret in 5-6 ways. And your interpretation may depend on what mood you were in while reading these lines (without a simile).

Please respect when someone writes NON NEGOTIABLE

Quote from: kaushik_s on June 20, 2012, 04:45:33 PM

Exactly, then how can you distinguish between,
Amazon is having a better price ;)
  Amazon is having a better price :P
Amazon is having a better price  >:(
  Amazon is having a better price :o

and judge that the seller is another low-life low-baller and not a genuine buyer. I'm simply trying to say that if someone just asks for a discount or whatever (before getting annoyingly persistent on bargaining) then there are ways to say no in a polite manner than to be rude and tell the person to buzz off. If that's not clear or it's too tough for one to be polite before taking out the guns and daggers then I've nothing more to say. I rest my case here. And BTW, we are not even talking about sells with "No Negotiation" clause, so please keep that aside.
Regards,

Price debate etc, if necessary can be done by PM with the seller.

You didn't read  properly what i have written! please read it again - specially the one marked in bold now in the insert!

Quote from: Sachn on June 21, 2012, 09:39:24 AM
Henry,
So great, there is control on the B&S section. I think Karthik needs to update the description of the B&S section the next time. Sachin.

I see your point, Sachin. How would you re-frame it? We can recommend different words there.

One question?

A buyer promised to transfer money in the bank account but did not do so, maybe he changed his mind.

Is it considered OK to renegade from a committed deal without providing a reason? 

Quote from: skartik12 on August 07, 2012, 09:51:35 AM
One question?

A buyer promised to transfer money in the bank account but did not do so, maybe he changed his mind.

Is it considered OK to renegade from a committed deal without providing a reason?

It is not considered 'Okay' .

Any prior committment to Sell/Buy an Item and later changing mind violates the rule and imposes question on honesty of the person involved in that deal....
When a person commits to buy and so commits to pay, Seller is sure that the item would be given to him and so stops entertaining other interested persons by providing details that some person has already commited to pay.
By change of mind from Buyer, Seller does not only loose other buyers but also leads in waste of time and energy. Faith in that person later would be out of question...

Quote from: Raj.clicker on August 07, 2012, 04:30:31 PM

Quote from: skartik12 on August 07, 2012, 09:51:35 AM
One question?

A buyer promised to transfer money in the bank account but did not do so, maybe he changed his mind.

Is it considered OK to renegade from a committed deal without providing a reason?

It is not considered 'Okay' .

Any prior committment to Sell/Buy an Item and later changing mind violates the rule and honesty of the person involved in that deal....
When a person commits to buy and so commits to pays, Seller is sure that the item would be given to him and so stops entertaining other interested persons by providing details that some person has already commited to pay. By change of mind from Buyer, Seller does not only loose other buyers but also leads in waste of time and energy. Faith in that person later would be out of question...

Thanks Raj.

Dear JJM Frnds,
For the 1st time I am being forced to write in Frowns bcoz of something which is not a huge deal but does effect trust among buyer and seller. The amount for which I am writing this only Rs 2,000 which I wouldn't have bothered much about but when someone breaks a commitment, its very hurting.

A little over a month ago I had posted to sell a Nikon 24mm 2.8 for Rs 12,000.
Mr. Dyutiman Bhattacharjee whom I had once bought stuff from before and had paid him on spot for it called me about this lens and if also I have a flash for sale since he had an event coming up in two days. I told him that I have recent bought 3 YN 565 which I havent used at all except testing and he can choose himself and take it for Rs10,000 since its an emergency... Otherwise I had no intention to sell my brand new flashes.
Anyway he came to my house (but without carrying any cash). He checked the lens and the flash. Since he had an event to shoot with no idea on hou to use a flash effectively I gave him a short lesson on the Flash and then made him understand CLS system so that he can use it off camera.
We then went out to atm, where he told me that he will give me Rs20,000 now and rest amount of Rs 2,000 in next couple of days via bank transfer.
That Rs 2,000 never came in last one month. Everytime he would tell me different versions like medical emergency, Bangkok trip etc. which might all be true but how long does it take one to transfer Rs 2,000... He even also told me that he will meet me and give me cash.
Anyway this is the case, sadly ruins my trust.

Lots of ppl in JJM have bought stuff from me over years ranging from few thousand to few lacs. Out of them some came to home to buy something and bought more stuff but since they were short on cash for the extra buy they used to go home and transfer me the money. I till date wonderful experiences every buy and sell...

Dyutiman Bhattacharjee from Kolkata has two id's... I think he stopped using one and created another one.
This is the old Id:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=1331

This is the new Id: http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9417

and This is a post which he had posted also WTB 24mm and flash
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=19976.0

I dont know if he would send me the money or not now but frankly I dont care since this has now left a bitter experience.

^ very unfortunate anirban. i hope after this post the guy involved pays pronto & clears his name.

take care & drive safe  ;)

somnath

Hi Anirban

So sad to learn about this! We are all proud to be with you, and you are facing issues like this!

This man Dyutiman had another id in this forum - walkonrain. He deleted this id and then came back with the other id. But he forgot to delete the id from BPC and you can check here as the proof -

http://www.bangalorephotographyclub.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2403 (http://www.bangalorephotographyclub.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2403)

See the signature at the bottom!

I think he also got one warning from Image about his duplicate ids when he put up one WTS post in this forum.

Nice experience ...

Cheers

What surprises me is the fact that the guy paid 20k out of 22k but didnt pay the rest 2k. Strange, very strange...

Quote from: bodhijobs on August 08, 2012, 12:35:56 PM
What surprises me is the fact that the guy paid 20k out of 22k but didnt pay the rest 2k. Strange, very strange...

His way of "bargaining" I suppose  ::)

Anirban - even without the issue on the non-payment, you should have reported the dual user ids.  If it's been done because of past adverse activity on his previous login, then that in itself is a violation of JJMF rules. I'd be interested in knowing what led him to create a second login.

Quote from: bodhijobs on August 08, 2012, 12:35:56 PM
What surprises me is the fact that the guy paid 20k out of 22k but didnt pay the rest 2k. Strange, very strange...

anirban was lucky that it was not the other way around!  ;D

jokes apart, this person needs to be banned. having multiple ids shows the intention of him acting as a suspicious seller/buyer here. we should all be careful.

cheers!
soumya

Its a shame he took advantage of a good deal to make an even better deal for himself.  >:(

Lets hope at least he gets a permanent ban.

I sold one lens if am not wrong my Nikon 28mm to this person , at the time of dealing he claimed Anirban to be  his very good and close friend , and asked me if I knew Anirban personally . Strange , seems like he never knew Anirban , as my dealing was done in Jan / Feb of this year .

Quote from: cantax-user on August 08, 2012, 12:59:22 PM

Quote from: bodhijobs on August 08, 2012, 12:35:56 PM
What surprises me is the fact that the guy paid 20k out of 22k but didnt pay the rest 2k. Strange, very strange...

anirban was lucky that it was not the other way around!  ;D

jokes apart, this person needs to be banned. having multiple ids shows the intention of him acting as a suspicious seller/buyer here. we should all be careful.

cheers!
soumya

This Dyutiman is the person who sent me atrocious messages long back .. and I asked in the forum, as to what is needed to be done to block this .. and since then , he is blocked to me :)

I bought an item listed in this forum last month. Despite, various phone calls, emails and sms, he has not delivered me the material.
everyday, he tells me a different story. Even he sent me a courier AWB and later on said that courier denied to accept the material.
I had paid full amount after seeing the courier receipt.

Please help me.

Quote from: pankajkumars on August 14, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
I bought an item listed in this forum last month. Despite, various phone calls, emails and sms, he has not delivered me the material.
everyday, he tells me a different story. Even he sent me a courier AWB and later on said that courier denied to accept the material.
I had paid full amount after seeing the courier receipt.

Please help me.

Share complete details of person, and item/listing details .....

Quote from: Raj.clicker on August 14, 2012, 03:59:26 PM

Quote from: pankajkumars on August 14, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
Please help me.

Share complete details of person, and item/listing details .....

Exactly. Is this also the Dyutiman mentioned upthread, or is it someone else?

The Mods are discussing the Dyutiman/rainwalker/alip situation now. Appropriate action is forthcoming.

Quote from: Hankosaurus on August 14, 2012, 04:52:17 PM

Quote from: Raj.clicker on August 14, 2012, 03:59:26 PM

Quote from: pankajkumars on August 14, 2012, 03:55:30 PM
Please help me.

Share complete details of person, and item/listing details .....

Exactly. Is this also the Dyutiman mentioned upthread, or is it someone else?

OK I will share. I am a bit  apprehensive whther forum members will make fun of me, depressing me further.
I will share shortly. on 22nd most probably.

Quote from: pankajkumars on August 14, 2012, 06:47:01 PM
OK I will share. I am a bit  apprehensive whther forum members will make fun of me, depressing me further.
I will share shortly. on 22nd most probably.

Pankaj, the Frowns and Grins threads are there as almost each and every one of us has had both bad and good experiences through buying and selling.

Those threads exist with names of people and incidents explained so that other people are protected in the future.

I don't think anyone is going to make fun of you at all .... I personally have a few too many sad stories myself  :(

I  fully agree with Vikram

Quote from: pankajkumars on August 14, 2012, 06:47:01 PM

I will share shortly. on 22nd most probably.

Why 22nd?? Any deadline from the end of you or the seller??

Quote from: wild007 on August 14, 2012, 08:59:43 PM

Quote from: pankajkumars on August 14, 2012, 06:47:01 PM

I will share shortly. on 22nd most probably.

Why 22nd?? Any deadline from the end of you or the seller??

I HAVE EXAM ON 21ST. HENCE I WANT CONCENTRATION. BUT COULD NOT RESIST LISTING THE TOPIC IN THIS FORUM. THANKS FOR CONCERN. WILL SEEK HELP SHORTLY.

Kya Pankaj bhai , Suspense movie bana rahe ho kya :)

Please share the name   :'(

Quote from: Hankosaurus on August 14, 2012, 04:52:17 PM
The Mods are discussing the Dyutiman/rainwalker/alip situation now. Appropriate action is forthcoming.

Dyutiman Bhattacharjee/Dyutiman/Walkonrain/alip has been banned for violation of the Rules of Buy & Sell, and for unethical conduct within the JJMPF. Anyone seeing any new instance of this person emerging, please advise the Moderators with evidence of the same.  

Quote from: SAHARSH1985 on August 14, 2012, 11:09:44 PM
Kya Pankaj bhai , Suspense movie bana rahe ho kya :)

Please share the name   :'(

Please let him reveal what he wants to as and when he is comfortable. He must be already going through a tough phase. Let's not push it. Time will tell all.

Hi ,

I also dealt with Roger H. Ephraim but my experience with him is exactly opposite .  I bought my camera body from him few months back. He is very nice gentlemen to deal with. I met him personally to finalize the deal. His approach was very transparent and humble.

There was some problem with the camera after 2 months of usage (it was not his fault) , but he took a pain to find out warranty agreement (which he had lost earlier ,hence camera was sold as without warranty) and helped me fix the camera free of cost.

I think in this case , he had genuine health problem.

Quote from: freshgrass on June 09, 2011, 04:13:39 PM
Hi.

I wish to share something about a member "Roger H. Ephraim".

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=6714

On 31st May, 2011, he posted an advertisement here offering 2 hard drives and a casing. Later on, moderators removed the listing because these items are not allowed in JJMPF. But before that I has started communication with Roger.

After exchanging few mails, he offered me a price for all 3 things, I accepted without any negotiation.

Neft timings were over for the day, so I could not transfer the money on 31st and I told him that he can pack the things and I will transfer the funds on 1st June.

I transfer the funds on 1st June (11:05 AM) and sent him an email with details and screenshots of transfer made which he did not reply.

After waiting till evening I sent him an SMS at 06:47 PM and he replied back that he has packed and scheduled the parcel for pickup.

After that I have sent various SMSs/emails asking for courier details/tracking number, but he did not reply.

SMS   02-Jun-2011 01:48 PM   No reply
SMS   02-Jun-2011 08:36 PM   No reply
SMS   03-Jun-2011 04:11 PM   No reply
Email   04-Jun-2011 04:47 PM   Replied mentioning health problem but assured that he has arranged for courier pickup.
Email   07-Jun-2011 07:56 PM   No reply Replied mentioning health problem but already copy+paste error
SMS   08-Jun-2011 11:30 AM   No reply

Finally, yesterday, 8th June 08:09 PM, I sent him an email with my bank details and I asked him to refund my money because I have already bought the hard disk after so much waiting.

But he still didn't answer and didn't refund.

It is ok if someone is in a problem but one can reply at least. I have been seeing his profile and he almost daily logs in JJMPF but does not reply my email/SMS.

His phone is also switched off now which was working at the time of making the payment.

Any suggestions guys?

Regards,
Mg.


Moderator Notes:

1. This issue was resolved to the buyer's satisfaction as of June 22. It appears that, in part, extenuating health issues complicated and delayed the process. A timely resolution, such as a reasonable buyer might normally expect, did not materialize. Further elaboration of, or discussion about, the delayed conclusion is now deemed unnecessary.  In order to keep this thread concise and useful to the Membership, follow-on commentary and discussions about this now-resolved issue have been removed.

2. The products offered were in violation of the Rules for Buy & Sell. The seller was unaware of this. The casual reader is not to interpret this situation as acceptable precedence for the sale or purchase of computer parts and accessories on JJMPF. Such is strictly forbidden. See Rules 2a and 2b for details.

Hi guys..
I am very new to this forum and dont know wheather its appropriate to write about some ongoing issues. Still i think its better to voice out some points. with due respect to all members here let me share some experiences. The member rainwalk/alip or whatever i know this guy for a long time.

1. whatever Anirban Bramha has explained its very sad incident but as per him he was cheated by Anirban. The product he bought from anirban ,market price is 11.5K ( as per shops ) Anirban has told him that cost 15K and he is selling for 10K. Dont you think guys this is also fraud. May be the guy do not have much knowledge about the latest prices but selling with a wrong impression is also a crime. He explained that he never told that he will not give him 2K but what i see here all our fellow members are after him. He went to Anirban's home, had some nice discussion and i was surprised to see how Mr.Bramha as explained. I am not in favour of that guy but still i find all of us are mad about him. Selling with a lie is also a crime guys and i do not support that.

2. He bought some items from RAS ( our fellow members ) He did a fare dealing with negotiation i believe. Knowing Mr.Bramha is a another issues. I think what our fellow member done is adding fuel to the fire. there was no bad instances with him.

3. Regarding having multiple Id's i had a word with him aswell. What he says he keeps forgetting password. May be that might me a genuin issue. I agree with you all that creating multiple id is a crime here and he should have infomed mod ASAP, but for that reason i believe if we have a mailing system and some other system to communicate with that perticular member and find out the reason, that will help.

4. Regarding the complain made by our fellow member Arindom RC, alip/dutiman/rainwalker explained that he had a bad experience with him as he commented something wrong in his tread, and adding to it he explained when he met with Anirban, even anirban uttered some bad things about Arindom and said he will talk to Mod and need to be blocked

5. @ cantax-user : whatever you said sir is partially correct. he is not a suspicious character  - that much i can tell u.

6. lastly i believe he never deal with Pankaj as he said.

May be i have talked too much here which i shouldnt have but lying about price what Anirban did was not correct at all. I personally do not support - this is also a fraud.

And why we are talking about BPC, BPC is separate and have no connection with this forum. Next i might see we are talking about his bank accounts and personal life.

As mods are here they are the best judge to do what ever feel like but i thing fuel is added to the fire and action has been taken.
He is in BPC for a long time and i know him from Bangalore. Nothing unethical work he has done. When a renowned photographer like Mr. Bramha can cheat people then this guy is too small and has been punished.

there is always another side of the story..

thank you.
Angshuman

Quote from: angshuman1976 on October 04, 2012, 01:32:21 AM
Hi guys..
I am very new to this forum and don't know ..... [snip]

Hello Dyutiman da,
nice to see you here in a new avtar. I was just discussing with a dear fellow member few days back that when will you be back with a new id. Reminds me about Om Puri's Last dialogue before Hrithik Roshan Heads off for his final mission in Lakshya :D Sorry I am really in a Good cheered up mood!

1st and foremost before you try to taint my image as a cheater, I will have several guys lined up who will say otherwise with whom I have bought and sold stuff from over the years amounting to several Lakhs... I wouldnt have mentioned about mere 2k unless it was morally wrong what you have done.

I Sold you 1 Nikon 24mm almost new condition for 12K and A BRAND NEW unused yn 565 when it was just launched in the market for 10k since you had an urgent emergency (and pleaded to me to sell them since you had a wedding andyou needed them) and Since I had bought 3 you wanted one. Total you were supposed to pay Rs 22,000... When you came to my home and later took me to atm, gave me rs 20,000 and told that you will give me the 2k Later, I told ok... which as we all know I never got.

Anyway who told you the market price for a Nikon 24mm 2.8 is 11.5k and since I told its 15k brand new in market I was wrong? I think i told you lower, its even higher.
Or if you r telling 11.5K thing about the flash, then why the hell would I give you a Flash which I bough brand new for 10K when I paid higher and wasnt meant for selling but bcoz you requested a lot as it was an emergency I sold it.
Since you knew the market price so well why did you buy and make a false commitment?
Dude if you have guts come meet me like you had come when you wanted to buy my gear and we will have a discussion :)

Regarding Multiple ids... well know you have 3 that we know of!

Arindom and I have our own issues during that time and everyone in JJMF knows it and both of us have been matured about it and have moved forward. Please dont be a PNPC Bengali Dyutiman da...

Dada as far as I am concerned its a very clever way to reduce price and you have done a wonderful job. Only sad part it you did it over just 2K... If it was the entire 22k then It would have been fun to see the outcome.


Update: Oh dear innocent dada, I just noticed that you had probably just blocked me on fb before posting here with a new id so that I cant catch a hold of you...
Sadly I could retrieve all msges (maybe some fb problem) but this may give some bong guys some idea for months how you were avoiding me :D
I knew that I will never get it still as a last option I discussed with my frnd to trade in your 28mm (if I am not worng, its bought from Ras) which you wanted to sell for 7K and in between I get my 2K back...
Funny thing, did you get some nice Gold Class movie seats in south city with that?

Here is the link: http://www.diigo.com/item/image/37w0z/gsoy?size=o (http://www.diigo.com/item/image/37w0z/gsoy?size=o)
(http://s3.amazonaws.com/awesome_screenshot/841755?AWSAccessKeyId=0R7FMW7AXRVCYMAPTPR2&Expires=1349300288&Signature=LQeDIdTuk%2BPIRiSxmv8UuqKEcZ4%3D)

Sorry Anirban Bramha, I not your dutimanda or whatever. I know this guy that much i can tell you.. sorry again somewhere its a mistake. this much i can tell you he has enough money and can pay your 2k


initially i thought not to discuss here but that guy is suffering from some diseases and not present here. i cannot disclose more.

Requesting Mods: please go a head and delete my account as well.. its seems something wrong been intrepreted and unnecessary talks are happening. and i am not dutiman.

thank you all and JJMPF.

PS: Anirban Bramha - you can have a word with him once he gets well and take your money also.

Quote from: angshuman1976 on October 04, 2012, 02:32:14 AM
Sorry Anirban Bramha, I not your dutimanda or whatever. I know this guy that much i can tell you.. sorry again somewhere its a mistake. this much i can tell you he has enough money and can pay your 2k


initially i thought not to discuss here but that guy is suffering from some diseases and not present here. i cannot disclose more.

Requesting Mods: please go a head and delete my account as well.. its seems something wrong been intrepreted and unnecessary talks are happening. and i am not dutiman.

thank you all and JJMPF.

PS: Anirban Bramha - you can have a word with him once he gets well and take your money also.

(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwr1pzHlO11qm8x9g.png)

Quote from: angshuman1976 on October 04, 2012, 02:32:14 AM
Requesting Mods: please go a head and delete my account as well.. its seems something wrong been intrepreted and unnecessary talks are happening. and i am not dutiman.

This is a disturbing trend I see on JJMPF these days. Everyone wants to become a martyr fighting for the cause of someone else. This is not an establishment you are fighting against. This is a community/forum, where mods listen and understand. If you have a concern, take it up with the mods and do it even before you post.

As far as the issue itself is concerned, it's between Anirban and Dyutiman. Dyutiman should have asked mods to unblock his id for him to give an explanation. Password reset takes 2 seconds for any mod if his memory is weak. Anirban has a screenshot of messages exchanged and even though I do not understand Bengali, from what I could gather Dyutiman clearly has not denied paying 2k saying it was never in the deal, but he keeps delaying it for one or the other reason. That also implies that he agrees that he needs to pay 2k. I do not know about his health and all that, but if that's really the case, hope he recovers soon.

Thanks Hellwrath, must have been quite an adventure to read and understand the Bengali conversation.

The reason I posted this in the first place is not for mere 2k, but to stop a new trend of low balling and price reduction starting by not paying the seller certain amount. Since what we do on JJMEHTA is many times based on blind trust, its very important that we value each others morals and uphold the trust.

If Dyutiman  had health problem then why would he block Anirban in FB ? When it comes to quoting price, I think seller is free to quote any price, I don't think it can be excuse for not paying remaining amount due.   

it is beyond my imagination that such fraudulent behaviour can be defended in any manner. anyway he is exposed at least. the issue was never the amount of money. if he is willing to pay after getting well then why doesnt he confirm it here .... of course thru another brand new shining id... lol

Wow, a lot of activity happening on this thread. I should visit it more often.

Quote from: angshuman1976 on October 04, 2012, 02:32:14 AM

initially i thought not to discuss here but that guy is suffering from some diseases and not present here. i cannot disclose more.

........

PS: Anirban Bramha - you can have a word with him once he gets well and take your money also.

To add to what Hellwrath said about people fighting for someone else's cause, it is also sad to know that in today's age when a person's online presence/activity can be tracked easily, we still have claims such as the one above being made. See screenshot taken from BPC to understand what I mean.



[attachment deleted by admin]

Dear angshuman,
by the confidence you are showing in explaining 'his problems' and 'his justifications', I somewhere felt that the guy is either your soulmate ( yeah I said right word :) ) or you are his father and that is why you know each and every details about him

By the way, is he (your friend ) suffering from any long lasting and serious health issue like Cancer ? The reason I am asking is that its been a long time Anirban opened his heart out here and still that guy is not well means he must be in a big disaster

And if you are not the same guy, why don't you show your facebook account link or provide your contact number so that the culprit can talk to you and Understand "his" problems from you :) Or else you can show this much care towards him by paying the money to Anirban :)

The reason me and other members are commenting on your post is because it looks very kiddish to see your posts and the way you have explained them....  They just confirmed you wrong

The Moderators have locked the account of angshuman1976.

Fellow Members please keep comments within this sticky salient, and with a focus on the facts. Verbose commentary clutters the thread making it less useful to those Members who would scan it to detect questionable sellers.

Quote from: Hankosaurus on October 05, 2012, 12:27:43 PM
The Moderators have locked the account of angshuman1976.

Fellow Members please keep comments within this sticky salient, and with a focus on the facts. Verbose commentary clutters the thread making it less useful to those Members who would scan it to detect questionable sellers.

Sorry, but what does lock means?? He wont be able to post in jjm forum now??
If so, i would like to ask - for what reason.. he has freedom to speak, let his pov should also come forward.
Also, is he verified as duityaman with another id or its just an assumption

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2

Mod Note:"Locked" means that the account named can no longer be accessed, used, or re-used by anyone:

angshuman1976 said this:

QuoteRequesting Mods: please go a head and delete my account as well.. its seems something wrong been intrepreted and unnecessary talks are happening. and i am not dutiman.

I am sad to list it here. But thats the way it is.

I bought an old sigma 400 mm 5.6 apo from member Gaurav Naik. (same ID)
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=22364.0

Before buying we had a few telephonic conversation. He informed me of some fungus and some water droplets he sees now in lens.

I have problem of water droplets in my other lenses too but on keeping them on room temperature or slightly warm sunlight, they are gone in a day. So i was hopeful and i purchased the lens.

On getting the lens there was some fungus as expected but the droplets described by him were large oil droplets all over the lens. I confirmed this with a technician in Guwahati. I called him number of times but he didnt picked up phone neither he replied to my msg. After 4-5 days i had a long tour (i am right now on tour) so i send him a strong msg that if you don't reply now regarding this situation, i am sending the lens back.

So his first call after talks of selling lens came and i explained the condition. He kept repeating that these are water droplet and would go in a day or two. I explained to him that i have consulted a lens technician and i have kept the lens for last 3-4 days in good sun (not harsh but soft sun ) still the droplets are not going or not even diminishing. So i am with technician that these are oil droplets.

Next i told him the cost of repair that technician has told me and i confirmed with some people with whom i get my old lenses cleaned. He kept saying let the lens be cleaned that is really water droplets and cost would not be so much. After hours of explanation with sms he agreed and then he said he would share half the cost. Even though i am not suppose to pay for condition not described by the seller I also agreed, but then he asked me for bills and pics of open lenses.

People who repair lenses in small shops usually don't give bills and regarding that we had an argument and regarding trust on me he said he cant have blind trust on anyone. I am on tour and i stay in remote place in Meghalaya with many places have no electricity etc. For me to take so much headache of getting the lens repaired in Delhi/Kolkata was not enough, this guy was not believing the approx price quoted and he kept on saying send me pics of lens opened and bill.

Ultimately my patience ran out, i told him lens is not as described - these oil droplets were not communicated to me so i am sending it back. Now he gives argument that so many people were after this lens and now if i get a buyer then only he will take the lens.

So what i am suppose to do dupe anyone else to get back my money. The lens is with me, he is not sending his full address. I am on tour and can get it repaired in 2-3 months and that time frame would not be ok for anyone.

I believe it was his genuine mistake in understanding that is water droplet but after so many messages, he behaves as its not his problem.
perhaps my 8k has gone down the drain but want to aware people about it.

There might be his side of story..but i don't understand why he keep insisting i find a buyer for this now, as i am not taking it, as its not as described. There are perhaps shops which can clean for cheap in Mumbai... cant he get it fixed and sell? Why he want it off in same condition. He doesn't trust me how can i trust him that there is nothing else wrong with this lens.

I have some 20-30 sms in my phone, if its gets to a point to prove, i can forward to the rightful person.

Perhaps trust has lost its value now...i trusted someone without having full knowledge of his credential, but i had similar interactions with number of other new members etc never had any problem. Last time another lens end up in similar situation the seller excepted his mistake (genuine). Why such sellers don't take responsibility even if its genuine mistake (i am not sure now with Gaurav).

Expect moderators to take decision as appropriate.

Mod Note: Mods are discussing this issue now.

I dont want to do this but no option...this is last msg just received from him

"..... Lens is not in right condition is...if lens has a scratch....Or af not working...or anything like that...There are buyers who are ready to buy it in any condition ...for 8k its steal......"
There are some post and pre part but these are not necessary...if needed would be send.

My question - "Sell it to those buyers. What is your problem now?"

Sad to hear about this. 8k IS a good price to pay but the issue isn't that at all. Its miscommunication by the seller and IMO the seller should accept responsibility for his actions. Hopefully the mods will intervene and decide on a course of action soon.

Dear Mods

I don't envy your job here.

Janardan Barthwal

Gaurav you have PM. Would like to see your response here.
Thanks.

Feedback here is not about any person, but DTDC. Probably wouldn't serve to call this Feedback. Just want to mention this unhappy incident to forewarn other members as well.

I purchased a Canon 17-55 f/2.8 from Bangalore and it was shipped to Pune from there. The lens was shipped on 18/Dec. And I received the AWB number as well for tracking.

The next day, it shows in transit. I was not worried since it was shipped late in the evening, so was expecting it to be In-Transit on 19/Dec. Called DTDC Call-Center to be sure - No Response.

Same status on 20/Dec. Except that this time the DTDC site told me that the package had reached the DTDC Pune on 20/Dec at around 9.20am. No delivery. Called DTDC Call-Center to check status - No Response. Called multiple times that day.

Same status on 21/Dec. Called DTDC Call-Center multiple times to check status - No Response. Now I was getting worried. (I had already transferred the money).

Same status on 22/Dec. No change in the information displayed on the website. No delivery. Called DTDC at 9am. The lady took all relevant details and promised to call back in 1 hr. No call back till 11.30am.

Finally my patience gave out and I drove to the DTDC Office. 1pm. Described my situation, provided the AWB number only to be told that the package has been delivered !!!! Well, now I was panicking !!!

As you'd imagine, I created a scene there. And while talking described the package as per the description given to me by my seller. And lo and behold ! the Supervisor brought a package out in about 30 seconds asking if this was the package. It looked exactly like the description I had. So I told them what was expected to be inside. They opened it, and it was the lens package. I provided my Id details and took delivery by hand.

The interesting part is that the package had NO IDENTIFICATION marks on it AT ALL. None whatsoever. No address, no DTDC bar code, no FRAGILE sticker ... Nothing ! Just a bubble wrapped package with brown tape ! I'm assuming that my seller must have provided address and other details, that is why it reached Pune. But somewhere in transit or at the B'lore dispatch office, these guys stripped it of everything and sent it. In fact, later on when I informed my seller of this incident he told me that the wrapping was even more - so it seems that the package was opened or at least someone tried. DTDC Pune was checking with their Delhi & B'lore office about this package and no one had a clue what it was, who sent it, where it had come from etc.

Had I not gone to the office that day, this package would have remained UNCLAIMED there and I'd never have received it. I'd have been under the impression that I was cheated by the seller etc. Seller and I would have exchanged ugly words on this forum etc - all for some one else's fault.

I complained to the DTDC Vigilance Officer and will be sending another email to other DTDC authorities as well.

Just wanted other members here to know about this incident and ensure you try to protect yourself against such situations. Declare the package, insure it, use their Secure Package deal etc etc so this does not happen to you.

Anyway - FYI - the lens is in good condition. Works well and looking forward to using it this week.

I've always used DTDC Plus (http://www.dtdc.in/dtdc-corporate-web_liferay/sg_premiumexp.html) - this is vastly different from the normal DTDC.

For one, the package is sealed inside a tamper-proof bag and the next is the amazing delivery time. For metros I can get delivery by as early as 10:30 AM the next day if I ship something before 8 PM today.

Obviously it is a lot more expensive than normal courier/DTDC, but well worth it and has moved lakhs worth of equipment without any issues (touch wood).

Quote from: kumarrishi on November 15, 2012, 09:15:40 PM
I dont want to do this but no option...this is last msg just received from him

"..... Lens is not in right condition is...if lens has a scratch....Or af not working...or anything like that...There are buyers who are ready to buy it in any condition ...for 8k its steal......"
There are some post and pre part but these are not necessary...if needed would be send.

My question - "Sell it to those buyers. What is your problem now?"

Hi Rishi ,
Did not log in to JJmehta for a long time ... So only a mail could get me back .

See i  always wanted people from Mumbai to check stuff in person before taking a decision So that it avoids hassle of selling and doing all that . You location of guwahati was remote for most couriers in  my area to send.  I packaged it in a box once...went to couple of courier service . Then after sme more days did a brand new packing ran around and finally got a courier service who would deliver it to you .

Before sending you the lens we had a call and you asked me to tell you what i saw. I described the exact condition of the lens which were true . Also i told i saw some water spots . I also told " mumbai is very humid and sometimes i get some water droplets . I keep it in sun and they go away . I KEPT THIS LENS ALSO IN SUN , but the water droplets did not evaporate " I had no frekking clue if it was water or OIL . for that matter i dont know how it looks . Inspite of telling you all this and taking hardship i sent the lens to you . Courier cost of 500rs (which was mentioned as buyer cost) was BORE BY ME as you are into conservation and i am into one . SO i felt the connect . Inspite of mentioning the outstation courier as BUYERS cost and risk . You went ahead.

After you got the lens may be you expected a L lens of 8k and it did not meet you expectation . You asked me for repair. i Just asked you to send me pics of opened lens as a proof and i will pay half for cleaning service . Now who pays half for cleaning of a old lens ?  . I agreed to it too. You took you time went out for a holiday and now want to return . My question when all points were cleared to you why take me for a jolly ride...if you were unsure you shouldnt have gone ahead.  I sold my other stuff to JJM members and everybody is fine.

I sent a brand new Flash to a JJM member Satyen . may be the courier guy dropped it or i dont know it did not work when it reached the guy . it was brand  new ! ...i did not ask a single question and refunded him the money .  So its not about having a lose integrity for 8k .... I had mumbai guys wanting the lens but i decided to do a HARD SHIPPING (you yourself would be a testimony of trouble i took to send it to guwahati ) . And now u want to simply return it ?  When i get 10 mails for a lens...i pick the guy from guwahati just to increase my troubles ?


Water droplets or oil droplets is what you say (who knows if u r not satistified with it and wanna return just like that ?) . I had told...it looks like water but isnt evaporating and your answer was ...ya ya thats ok i will take care of it . SO now why turn turtle ?

Rishi the point is ...you tell a guy ...oh yeh whatever the condition i am taking it i will manage ....and then once u check the lens...say i wanna return ? Why spoil somebody's sale ? mudsling him ? and waste his time ?

Also have you seen your tone in messages? i felt i sent a brick instead of a lens ... !

@Moderators : This thread is good intention . But there is no authenticity to check the guy complaining is cooking up a story or not .  Many ppl just pick an oldie to check if its  a gem , if it is ...its a lottery else... 

@Chinmoy,

I have had similar incidents twice. I couriered the package once to bangalore. When the buyer got it, he to mentioned that there were no details, but only the tracking number on the package. Also, i had sent him pics of the packaging too, which he mentioned was completely tampered. I went to the DTDC office & they mentioned that they have the rights of opening the package (even though I had given them in written, whats being couriered).  Damn thing, that they dont have scanners to monitor :/
Worst part was that the hood was missing. :(

Second incident was very similar to your's. package did arrive at the DTDC Pimpri Office (5 mins distance from my place), but they never bothered to hand over it to me. Due to office timings constraints, always had to have a word over a call & they assusred that it will be deilvered soon. Finally I went to their office on Sat & they mentioned that there was no address on it & only my name was mentioned.
My question was, "how did the package come to Pimpri all the way from Hyderabad?"
The manager over there was quite & had 100 reasons to keep his side safe.

Like Vikram said, go for the DTDC Plus service. Much Much better.

Thanks for viewing

Pankaj :)

Quote from: Gaurav Naik on December 26, 2012, 04:25:33 PM


Hi Rishi ,
Did not log in to JJmehta for a long time ... So only a mail could get me back .

See i  always wanted people from Mumbai to check stuff in person before taking a decision So that it avoids hassle of selling and doing all that . You location of guwahati was remote for most couriers in  my area to send.  I packaged it in a box once...went to couple of courier service . Then after sme more days did a brand new packing ran around and finally got a courier service who would deliver it to you .

Before sending you the lens we had a call and you asked me to tell you what i saw. I described the exact condition of the lens which were true . Also i told i saw some water spots . I also told " mumbai is very humid and sometimes i get some water droplets . I keep it in sun and they go away . I KEPT THIS LENS ALSO IN SUN , but the water droplets did not evaporate " I had no frekking clue if it was water or OIL . for that matter i dont know how it looks . Inspite of telling you all this and taking hardship i sent the lens to you . Courier cost of 500rs (which was mentioned as buyer cost) was BORE BY ME as you are into conservation and i am into one . SO i felt the connect . Inspite of mentioning the outstation courier as BUYERS cost and risk . You went ahead.

Buyer cost and risk - doesnt it applies for courier related risk not the orignal condition of lens.
The water droplets (as u thought) didn't disappear like other lenses - doesn't it appeared it could have been oil.
I had no frekking clue if it was water or OIL - But when i tell u it is you don't accept it.

Quote from: Gaurav Naik on December 26, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
After you got the lens may be you expected a L lens of 8k and it did not meet you expectation . You asked me for repair. i Just asked you to send me pics of opened lens as a proof and i will pay half for cleaning service . Now who pays half for cleaning of a old lens ?  . I agreed to it too. You took you time went out for a holiday and now want to return . My question when all points were cleared to you why take me for a jolly ride...if you were unsure you shouldnt have gone ahead.  I sold my other stuff to JJM members and everybody is fine.

Small repair shops which don't give any bills. We have communicated over it and last you said send me hand made bills - when you dont accept what i am saying. You may say i made up the hand made bills. I also told you if you want proper bill Sheetala Camera in bangalore will give but they may take double for this and you were not willing to do this through them.

I called you and told you i wont be available due to tour and i am not planning to take the lens with me so do let me know your address,  if you want to me to ship it back i will carry with me. You did not give me your address. Why to carry lens with problems on a tour where i wanted my best equipment. I have your msgs and mine in phone do u want me to post it here.

Quote from: Gaurav Naik on December 26, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
I sent a brand new Flash to a JJM member Satyen . may be the courier guy dropped it or i dont know it did not work when it reached the guy . it was brand  new ! ...i did not ask a single question and refunded him the money .  So its not about having a lose integrity for 8k .... I had mumbai guys wanting the lens but i decided to do a HARD SHIPPING (you yourself would be a testimony of trouble i took to send it to guwahati ) . And now u want to simply return it ?  When i get 10 mails for a lens...i pick the guy from guwahati just to increase my troubles ?

So this is perhaps not your first time of sending bad stuff. You repaid satyen when it might have been dropped by courier guy but when no way i could have inserted the oil drop in lens you still don't believe me or refund me. I dont see any seller integrity.

Quote from: Gaurav Naik on December 26, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
Water droplets or oil droplets is what you say (who knows if u r not satistified with it and wanna return just like that ?) . I had told...it looks like water but isnt evaporating and your answer was ...ya ya thats ok i will take care of it . SO now why turn turtle ?

No i never said that..u only told me perhaps it will take some time for water droplet to evaporate and i asked you again and agian are these water droplets and you said yes. I had water droplets in my other lens and i told u if these are water droplets only then it wont be a problem. These are not water droplets.

Quote from: Gaurav Naik on December 26, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
Rishi the point is ...you tell a guy ...oh yeh whatever the condition i am taking it i will manage ....and then once u check the lens...say i wanna return ? Why spoil somebody's sale ? mudsling him ? and waste his time ?

Also have you seen your tone in messages? i felt i sent a brick instead of a lens ... !

I never said whatever condition don't lie now. I asked u again and again for fungus and water droplets and Af working or not. You told me whatever, i believed. When i find its not what u described as it has oil droplet, lot of it why shouldn't i want it to return?

When its send not as described you want me to forget about it and continue. if you believe that these are water droplets then take it back when the water evaporates sell it off.
My tone is fine ... i see u write lies now.

Quote from: Gaurav Naik on December 26, 2012, 04:25:33 PM
@Moderators : This thread is good intention . But there is no authenticity to check the guy complaining is cooking up a story or not .  Many ppl just pick an oldie to check if its  a gem , if it is ...its a lottery else...

Moderators please take necessary action.

I have nothing to post related to the discussion on hand, just curious, how can a lens have oil drops in it?
Not that I doubt it or anything, I just want to know what could possibly cause that so I may avoid it.

Old greases decay and form oil on aperture. I read somewhere that
newer silicon based lubricants don't decay and form oil

Fellow Members,

It is the collective judgement of the Panel of Moderators that JJMPF Member "Gaurav Naik" of Mumbai has  misrepresented a product offered in Buy & Sell. Attempts to encourage an amicable solution to the problem have failed. Accordingly, his account has been permanently locked to bring this matter into compliance with Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

No further inquiries, nor any special comments from any Member on this issue, will be entertained by the Moderators.

Hi All,

This is Anil, a newbie photography hobbiestic, would like to share my recent experience of purchase on JJMF :

First time I faced this problem, I have bought multiple products from JJMF but never faced such a problem, Although its totally my mistake that I blindly trusted a JJMF member about pricing and all, Its quite obvious too, I mean people having senior ratings and member of this forum makes it bit comfortable to trust and have faith on their words.

Last month I bought two flash units from a senior rating JJMF member, paid him the asking amount in cash (without negotiations) & picked stuff from his home itself. Also we tried to test the flash units at his place on commander mode of my cam but somehow the synch was not proper but the person tried his best with settings, also he helped in explaining me the basics of photography and shared some study material too(so nice of him). After coming back i tried with multiple settings of commander mode, kinda hit & trial. it worked but not upto my satisfaction.. Also after couple of weekend experimentation I realized one flash can fulfill my requirements and its better to have a OEM flash for on-camera & off camera usage. Till now everything was fine :)

So I decided to purchase a SB-600/700 used unit in budget and listed the units I purchased few weeks back for selling to raise funds, In response to my WTS listing, JJMF members contacted me and informed that my asking price is higher than the current market price of new units. Initially i ignored but later I asked them the contact of seller. To my surprise that seller said these are out of stock but can provide for 3100/- per unit (which I paid 3600/- for used ones). I contacted politely to the prev owner of these flashes, initially he did not responded for PM then I called him, first call un-answered and in another call he was busy in some family function, here's the detailed communication :-

Quote from: Magic in Eyes on January 13, 2013, 12:43:07 PM

Quote from: xxx on January 13, 2013, 07:16:19 AM

Quote from: Magic in Eyes on January 13, 2013, 01:09:06 AM

Quote from: xxx on January 12, 2013, 10:02:03 PM

Quote from: Magic in Eyes on January 11, 2013, 06:58:02 PM
Hi ABCD,

I don't know how to say this but the fact is JJMF members calling me & stating same thing again & again "the price for new flash is 3100 or 3200/-" Today 3rd person stated this thing. I'm gonna withdraw the sale as I don't wanna portrait sch an image of mine on the forum.

Do you think you can help me in this matter ? I've paid you more than the price for new (whatever you asked, without negotiating). Please let me know if you are interested in discussing this else I won't disturb you again.

Thanks !!

Regards,
Anil Sharma

Hi Anil,

Even I am not sure what to say. I am not sure where anyone is getting this for Rs 3100 new. If I am not wrong even -------- had sold his YN560 at same price (3600/-) around a week or 2 before i had put it on sale.

My thought if it is really available for Rs 3100/- used and you are quoting Rs 3600/- then i would not even bargain with you, but will go and get a new one. These are just some lowballers who will quote really low price just in case they get a deal.

If you check the price on Amazon.com it's for $68 - @ 54.81 conversion rate and 5% credit card charge the price comes to INR 3913.00. But again that is price in USA. Adding some cost to shipping to India, there is no way you have paid more than a new one.

Even if you check ebay the price is lowest at $58 which basis the above calculation comes to INR 3337 + registered shipping $10.00 and total cost is $ 3913.00. Any seller in India would add some more profit for getting the item shipped to India and taking risk. There is no way I think it would be less than INR 4200 anywhere, unless it is a used product.

Give the same information back to the people who have approached you and they will get their brains back.

Regards,
ABCD

Hi ABCD,

I've shared a fb link with you, have a chat with him, he's giving YN-560 for 3100/- (I've checked the ground reality then approached you)
Three person confirmed the same thing -
1. XXXXX (Professor ratings)
2. XXXXX (Regular from Delhi)
3. XXXXX (Newbie from Delhi)

Yeah true ------ sold, I tried to trace his listing and found only one reply of -------, probably he bought it btw You also succeeded in selling :P I was happy too but somehow commander mode performance was not that much good and I realized that one flash can fulfill my requirement and I thought of selling these by own without giving you any tension to raise funds for SB700 but..

It really sound stupid to argue for few bucks, I pinged JJMF moderator (without disclosing any name, not with the intention to blame rather to seek suggestion) and discussed the situation, he suggested to check the ground reality first and hold the sale till then, so I did a chat with that person, he said right now not in stock but can provide in 3100/-

So I deleted the thread, I don't wanna cheat anyone.

Today I called you to ask your address, so that I can ship these back to you, I don't want money too. I trusted you man.. not negotiated even a single penny.. and said in mail too, money is not so imp but trust and relations are more imp. BTW y u deleted wts thread of these flashes? i can see other thread but not this one.

After dropping you pm, I checked your last active time too but no response from your side, I asked for discussion only mate.

Anyways no hard feelings, just provide me your postal address, I'll send these to you as I won't be able to post them for sale knowing the mkt value.

Thanks for your valuable time.

Anil Sharma

Hi Anil,

I don't know what to say. Though not directly you are saying that I cheated you. I send a notification to the moderator to close/delete my post if the item gets sold. Some get deleted some get locked. You have clearly mentioned in your post that you bought the flashes from me. So there is nothing to hide from my side.

I didn't force anyone to buy it from me. It's a open forum.

I am sorry , but will not be able to take the flash back, even if it's for free. I was asked by someone on another forum for the flashes also, but by then you had bought it. I am going to send him your contact details. Let's see if it helps.

Regards,
ABCD


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hi ABCD,

I've provided the facts before saying anything, true this is an open forum but still I was wondering if it was intentional or you were also unaware of current market prices.

Don't share my contact details to anyone, I won't be selling them... (at-least in this price).

Thanks for everything and hope you couriered the manual.

Regards,
Anil Sharma

I was expecting... might be he was also un-aware of current mkt prices and we can share the loss mutually but he responded like "It's an open forum, I've not forced anyone... :) :)"

Finally I deleted the WTS thread and purchased a SB-600, now I have three flash units :) :) will sell non-oem (with a loss for sure) , after atleast using them properly ;-).

So my point is before making any purchase double check on dealers too rather than checking online...

Regards,
Anil Sharma

Even though you should have checked market price (or online at least), I dont think it is morally correct to sale in higher that CURRENT prices.

Can I request mods to include one more item eg 'online link for product', in Buy/Sell std format,may not neccessarily with price, but prospective buyers can take it from here and search ...?

It will also helpful in understanding correct product.

Just a suggestion....

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Tapatalk 2

Quote from: Digital_Reality on January 14, 2013, 06:52:03 PM
Even though you should have checked market price (or online at least), I don't think it is morally correct to sell higher than CURRENT prices.

JJMPF's Buy & Sell Rules say that the Member must not engage in pecuniary or business activity on JJMPF, such as would be for the purpose of turning a personal profit directly, or indirectly as an agent for others, and at the expense of any fellow JJMPF Member. No business activity on JJMPF, in other words.

QuoteCan I request mods to include one more item eg 'online link for product', in Buy/Sell std format,may not necessarily with price, but prospective buyers can take it from here and search ...?

It is incumbent upon JJMPF Members to vet those Members with whom they choose to exchange gear and money. It is also their individual responsibility to verify the value of the products being offered. Items priced too high should not sell amongst reasonable buyers who have done their homework.

QuoteIt will also [be] helpful in understanding correct product.

Again, this is the responsibility of any buyer before making a purchase. It is the responsibility of the seller to represent the product truthfully. The buyer should not buy before vetting product, price, value, and seller.

QuoteJust a suggestion....

Thanks for raising the point for discussion.

Quote from: Hankosaurus on January 16, 2013, 12:02:53 PM

Quote from: Digital_Reality on January 14, 2013, 06:52:03 PM
Even though you should have checked market price (or online at least), I don't think it is morally correct to sell higher than CURRENT prices.

JJMPF's Buy & Sell Rules say that the Member must not engage in pecuniary or business activity on JJMPF, such as would be for the purpose of turning a personal profit directly, or indirectly as an agent for others, and at the expense of any fellow JJMPF Member. No business activity on JJMPF, in other words.

QuoteCan I request mods to include one more item eg 'online link for product', in Buy/Sell std format,may not necessarily with price, but prospective buyers can take it from here and search ...?

It is incumbent upon JJMPF Members to vet those Members with whom they choose to exchange gear and money. It is also their individual responsibility to verify the value of the products being offered. Items priced too high should not sell amongst reasonable buyers who have done their homework.

QuoteIt will also [be] helpful in understanding correct product.

Again, this is the responsibility of any buyer before making a purchase. It is the responsibility of the seller to represent the product truthfully. The buyer should not buy before vetting product, price, value, and seller.

QuoteJust a suggestion....

Thanks for raising the point for discussion.

Thanks for clarifying.. Make sense!

I'm quite new to this forum and I don't know whether this has been suggested earlier.. but I find it quite odd that posting of clear product pictures with your JJM username and current date on a piece of paper is not mandatory.. I believe this rule would be beneficial to everyone..

Quote from: NeViLLe on January 16, 2013, 01:57:42 PM
I'm quite new to this forum and I don't know whether this has been suggested earlier.. but I find it quite odd that posting of clear product pictures with your JJM username and current date on a piece of paper is not mandatory.. I believe this rule would be beneficial to everyone..

Hi Neville,

I must confess I'm confused as to how that will help and have always wondered about it in other fora as well.

The purpose is obviously to help people see at a glance that the condition of the item on so-and-so date was exactly like it is in the picture.

But then, so will a line of text stating that the item is in very good condition. The picture isn't a guarantee - If my intent is to cheat, I can certainly clean blemishes away using photoshop.

Quote from: VikramF on January 16, 2013, 02:07:39 PM

Quote from: NeViLLe on January 16, 2013, 01:57:42 PM
I'm quite new to this forum and I don't know whether this has been suggested earlier.. but I find it quite odd that posting of clear product pictures with your JJM username and current date on a piece of paper is not mandatory.. I believe this rule would be beneficial to everyone..

Hi Neville,

I must confess I'm confused as to how that will help and have always wondered about it in other fora as well.

The purpose is obviously to help people see at a glance that the condition of the item on so-and-so date was exactly like it is in the picture.

But then, so will a line of text stating that the item is in very good condition. The picture isn't a guarantee - If my intent is to cheat, I can certainly clean blemishes away using photoshop.

Vikram,

It helps in asserting the fact that the seller indeed has the item. I have seen many cases when someone is new to the forum and wants to sell an expensive item, he's asked to keep a piece of paper next to that item and write a specific word so that the buyers know he's for real and isn't going to dupe them. That way a seller won't download photos from let's say ebay and say he owns the item.

Quote from: Hellwrath on January 17, 2013, 12:34:51 AM

Quote from: VikramF on January 16, 2013, 02:07:39 PM

Quote from: NeViLLe on January 16, 2013, 01:57:42 PM
I'm quite new to this forum and I don't know whether this has been suggested earlier.. but I find it quite odd that posting of clear product pictures with your JJM username and current date on a piece of paper is not mandatory.. I believe this rule would be beneficial to everyone..

Hi Neville,

I must confess I'm confused as to how that will help and have always wondered about it in other fora as well.

The purpose is obviously to help people see at a glance that the condition of the item on so-and-so date was exactly like it is in the picture.

But then, so will a line of text stating that the item is in very good condition. The picture isn't a guarantee - If my intent is to cheat, I can certainly clean blemishes away using photoshop.

Vikram,

It helps in asserting the fact that the seller indeed has the item. I have seen many cases when someone is new to the forum and wants to sell an expensive item, he's asked to keep a piece of paper next to that item and write a specific word so that the buyers know he's for real and isn't going to dupe them. That way a seller won't download photos from let's say ebay and say he owns the item.

Hi Veeresh.

It's impossible to legislate integrity in a foolproof manner. The Rules recommend (but do not require) the use of photographs to clarify the offer, and especially so if one is "selling for a friend." The seller, if he really wants to make the sale, should represent his offer in such a way as to dispel reasonable doubts from every corner. If he does not do that, then that could be interpreted as a red flag, and which could result in serious doubts about the offer, and even of the seller himself. Seller's loss.

The buyer has a personal responsibility to notice deficits in the quality of the offer, and in the quality of the seller, for that matter. He should discern the quality of the seller and product through interrogation or by other means. He must not expect to be able to push this personal responsibility off and onto others. No rule can replace this responsibility.

Any JJMPF Member in good standing can probably sell anything he has without pictures, if he chooses to do so.  And it is his choice as to whether or not a particular offer actually needs pictures in order to sell. He might choose to describe a flaw or provide a picture of it. His choice.

The only requirements of the seller are that his offer is truthful, strictly photographic in nature, and that his activity is not pecuniary. If his pitch is not convincing, then too bad for him.

Common sense would suggest that newer Members should make longer strides to address any lingering doubts about themselves and their offers. In many cases photos would probably help. Your idea about the piece of paper is one example of how to address that. They should do such things if they want to make the sale, but it is not a requirement.

A blanket mandate for photographs in For Sale offers would only make it less convenient to sell items in those cases wherein photos are not really needed. And a look through Buy & Sell will reveal that there are many such cases.

Henry,

I am with you on every point, I was trying to trying to explain the rationale behind the photo with date rule on other forums :). I am usually wary of buying/selling without inspection unless I know the person well. It's individual responsibility and as you rightly said, no rule can make a system foolproof. We just have to be careful and smart and choose the right people to deal with.

Hi Veeresh.

I understand, and I know we are all together in this thinking of personal responsibility.

Even though I spoke to you personally in my previous post, I had visualized myself speaking for the benefit of the readership in general. I saw an opportunity to restate the "Intent of the Rules," and especially as they pertain to the unfortunate issue encountered by two of our fellow Members just up-thread.

Your many valuable contributions in advancing useful dialogue on JJMPF are appreciated more than you may know.

A friend of mine, by the user name of MS, has been banned from the group....He want to know why he was banned....and he cant log in the site anymore....He wants to know whether he can rejoin by the same name..Thanks

Quote from: drgap on February 07, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
A friend of mine, by the user name of MS, has been banned from the group....He want to know why he was banned....and he cant log in the site anymore....He wants to know whether he can rejoin by the same name..Thanks

Could you send/post a link to his account here? I can't find any "MS" .

This is the screenshot of what he gets now

[attachment deleted by admin]

Quote from: drgap on February 07, 2013, 06:42:28 PM
A friend of mine, by the user name of MS, has been banned from the group....He want to know why he was banned....and he cant log in the site anymore....He wants to know whether he can rejoin by the same name..Thanks

The ban was put into force on January 12, 2013 for violation of Rule 15a:

Rule 15a. No Commercial Sales Activity
Commercial and pecuniary sales activities are not allowed within any JJMPF Forum. The JJMPF Buy and Sell forum is strictly for the benefit of its Members only. JJMPF shall NOT serve as a sales platform for external businesses, nor for promoting personal business, nor for the brokerage for the sale, rent, or trading of anything or of any service. Posts of this sort will be eliminated, and their sources will be blocked from the JJMPF.

The post in violation pertained to a photo safari business appealing for customers on JJMPF.

Thanks for unfreezing MS account

I have a question:

If a member putting up an item for sale states the following:
Item Description : XXXX in good condition used for 2 yrs Old.
Are you the original owner of the item being sold ? : Yes

What should be the age of the item put up for sale according to the above mentioned details?

Quote from: abhivg on May 06, 2013, 10:02:22 PM
I have a question:

If a member putting up an item for sale states the following:
Item Description : XXXX in good condition used for 2 yrs Old.
Are you the original owner of the item being sold ? : Yes

What should be the age of the item put up for sale according to the above mentioned details?

Not sure about your question but I see two possibilities:

(i) Seller bought the equipment new and is now selling it. In which case, the equipment is now 2 years old.
(ii) Seller bought it used and has used it for 2 years in which case the equipment is 2 years + how old it was when the seller bought it (assuming that info is available).

Original owner I think (mods, please correct me if I am wrong) means if the person selling the equipment actually owns the equipment and is not selling on behalf of a friend.

Quote from: Hellwrath on May 07, 2013, 01:36:17 AM

Quote from: abhivg on May 06, 2013, 10:02:22 PM
I have a question:

If a member putting up an item for sale states the following:
Item Description : XXXX in good condition used for 2 yrs Old.
Are you the original owner of the item being sold ? : Yes

What should be the age of the item put up for sale according to the above mentioned details?

Not sure about your question but I see two possibilities:

(i) Seller bought the equipment new and is now selling it. In which case, the equipment is now 2 years old.
(ii) Seller bought it used and has used it for 2 years in which case the equipment is 2 years + how old it was when the seller bought it (assuming that info is available).

Original owner I think (mods, please correct me if I am wrong) means if the person selling the equipment actually owns the equipment and is not selling on behalf of a friend.

Me thinks original owner = first owner of the item, person buying directly from retailer.

Hi All,

Really long post but please bear with me.

I would like to bring to notice to the moderators and forum members an ordeal that I am going through right now due to a purchase I did through the sale forum:
I recently purchased a lens put up for sale in the following thread:   http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,26647.0.html
The seller is a certain Mr. Saurabh Pandit (user ID: saurabhart215) from Borivali, Mumbai

As per the details in the post the lens is a Canon EF 24-105mm F4 lens which Mr. Saurabh Pandit bought 2 years back and he mentions that he is the original owner of the lens. What I understood from this is that he bought it new and has been using it for 2 years. Secondly he clearly states that the lens condition is "Good, No scratches or Fungus on lens".

I initially talked with Mr. Pandit over the phone and he mentioned that he bought the lens new 2 years back and he is using it since. He also said the lens condition is very good and he has always stored it in a dehumidifying cabinet. We did initial negotiations over the price of the lens over the phone and settled on a price of 39K. He arranged for having the lens delivered with his niece who stays in Pune where I live. Since I was apprehensive buying an unseen item, I asked my cousin who lives in Mumbai to personally go to Mr. Saurabh Pandits place and check the
item and pay for it in person. My cousin is not a photography expert and he checked the item and thought it seemed fine. My cousin made the payment on Friday, 3rd May 2013. On making the payment, Mr. Saurabh Pandit sent the lens along with his niece to Pune and I received it on 4th May 2013.

When I went home and checked the lens, the lens zoom ring seemed a bit stiff and the switches too were stiff. Since I have EFS lenses 3 years old which operate a lot smoother, I sensed something wrong. I looked up the lens code on the net and to my horror the lens was manufactured in 2006 (lens code UU0505)! Not sure why but checking the lens code did not strike me before buying it and that was major stupidity on my part. Also when I checked the lens against sunlight, I could clearly see some fungal growth in one of the inner elements of the lens.

I called up Mr. Pandit on 5th May 2013 and told him the above observations. He then tells me that he doesnt understand lens date codes. He bought the lens as a white box item from a dealer in Fort. He has purchased 100s of cameras from him and trusts the dealer completely. Regarding the fungus he said that he had tested the lens by testing a shot against a white wall which did not show up anything. Also he said that he had had gotten it cleaned from Canon authorised service centre 3 months back. On asking why he got it cleaned, he said there might have been fungus on the lens. He further told me that I should not be worried using it on my camera since it wont affect the camera. I told him I was not willing to take the risk and that I would send the images of both the date code and the fungal growth to him via email.

My email to Mr. Pandit dated 5th May 2013:
----------------------------
Hi Saurabh,

As per our discussion on the phone today:
1) The lens date code is 'UU0505' which indicates that the lens was manufactured in 2006. The second alphabet represents the year of manufacture. Please refer to "http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/date-codes.htm" and "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_L_lens#Canon_lens_codes" . From your post on JJMEHTA, you had mentioned that the lens was 2 years old and you were the original owner, hence I expected it to be manufactured in around 2010-11 and not in 2006. I am attaching the date code image.
2) The lens shows fungus on the internal elements. This can be clearly seen by naked eye against any bright light. I am attaching images which show the fungal growth. Your post mentioned that there was no fungus on the lens.

I wanted to use the lens today but did not due to the fungus. Even though it may not show up in the images, I do not want to take the risk of using this lens on my camera.
Let me know how we should proceed on this.

regards,
Abhishek
----------------------------

I called him up on 6th May 2013, He did not pick up. Called him up again after an our, he said his internet was down and would check the mail soon and reply to my mail. The reply that I got was as follows:

Salient points from Mr. Pandits reply to me dated 6th May 2013
----------------------------
1) The date of manufacturing may be 2006 or even earlier, and the product may have been kept sealed and packed. It was purchased by myself 2 years back and used for 2 years only. As a consumer I would only be concerned with whether the product is sealed and packed or it has been tampered with at the time of purchase. I wouldn't be concerned with the date of manufacturing as it is not a "perishable" item. The lens were used by myself for 2 years and the same was put across to you in all faith and honesty.

2) The lens were thoroughly checked by your brother at the time of handing them over to him and only then the amount was received in lieu. Had there been any concern with regards to any kind of damage or fungal growth, it should have been brought to my notice immediately. And also, being a photographer in business, keeping in mind certain ethics, i would never even offer any equipment on sale if it is damaged or cannot be used. I'd rather get it repaired or discard it, if beyond repairs.

3) Having said the above, I had clearly put across a "No Refund" policy on the JJ Mehta forum at the time of the sale. And your trail mail below clearly states your acceptance towards all terms, conditions and policies.

I hope this addresses your concerns.

Do let me know in case if anything else other than the above.
----------------------------

My arguments here are that age of the lens was mis represented; actual age is MORE THAN 3 TIMES THE MENTIONED AGE!!! Facts such as white box item and not bought from authorised canon dealer SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUT FORTH IN THE AD ITSELF. Also he said he did not have receipt indicating that he bought it 2 years ago. Considering the fact that incorrect details about the fungus were provided by the seller, I am not sure if he bought it 2 years ago or earlier.

Further, the condition of the lens is misrepresented. Saying that there is no fungus in lens when in fact there is, IS NOT ETHICAL. Also he didnt deny that there is fungal growth, but instead blames the buyer by saying you should have checked it first. Not sure what ethics he is talking about.

I sent a reply on 6th May 2013 saying that since the other conditions in his post do not hold true, I cannot accept the "No refund policy" condition and requested for a refund. I did not hear back from him. Hence called him up on 7th May 2013 and asked him what can be done. He said he has invested the amount already and cannot refund. I informed him that I cannot use the lens and that I would go ahead with legal options. He proposed that he'll pay for the lens cleaning. I denied saying that firstly lens is 3 times old than mentioned and that the lens is fungus prone since he had recently gotten it cleaned and it has grown back. He said he'll think about it and let me know.

In my final call with him today 8th May 2013 I informed him that I would pursue legal options, which resulted in his concluding statement of the form 'Do whatever you want, no refund'!!
I am going ahead with all possible legal options.

I would like tell the forum members to learn from my mistake. At the cost of repeating the instructions already out there I would like to say:
- Never be in a hurry to buy the item, whatever the seller may tell you.
- Check lens date codes
- Ask simple and direct questions, dont leave room for assumptions. Do this via email even if you have talked over phone
- If required, request seller to give a more detailed description in writing to leave out any doubts.
- ask for detailed pictures of the item being sold (from specific angles if required)

Mods, kindly take appropriate action regarding this matter as per your discretion.

NOTE: Attaching images of the date code and fungus for reference

regards,
Abhishek

[attachment deleted by admin]

QuoteAlso he said that he had had gotten it cleaned from Canon authorised service centre 3 months back.

Ask him for the Service Report from Canon. That should state clearly what was done in the servicing.
Canon would have done a complete checkup of the lens and would have sought approval for the servicing to be done as well as the cost thereof.
You can then also check with Canon as to whether there were any other problems with the lens that were not addressed due to lack of approval from the owner. That would give you a complete history of the lens.

If there is no service report available and Canon does not have a record of the lens serial number, then the probability is that the lens has not been serviced by Canon.

+ 1 with Bharat Ji.

From the images of the fungal growth as well as the date code, it isn't hard to deduce that the seller has "cheated" a fellow member on this forum.

If the seller fails to produce Canon service centre's bill mentioning the exact service history, the deal clearly reeks of fraudulent practices. Request our dear Mods to expedite stern action on this seller please.

@ Bharat and Vijay,

Thanks for your suggestion. I am not sure banning a user would be action "stern enough" in this case. But I guess that's how the system works.

@Mods

Kindly take appropriate action at the earliest so that other people are not cheated further.

Mod Note:
The Moderators are currently evaluating this unfortunate situation.

It is extremely sad to see an unfortunate situation like this developing on the otherwise hugely successful Buy & Sell Forum of JJMPF. However we are not jumping to any conclusions as of yet and a PM has been sent to the seller asking for a few clarifications and till that reply is received I would request the membership from not labelling any member adversely.

There are some interesting observations & cautions I would like to share with the membership but would like to proceed only after a little more data is available from the seller. As we can see, the buyer has already presented all the data from his side but the seller needs to provide us some facts as seen from his viewpoint.

At this point I will just say that all buyers must take ALL possible steps to protect themselves from a bad transaction because the very nature of forum transactions is that if they go bad, there is not much recourse to the buyer to recover his money in most of the cases.

Thanks.

Quote from: abhivg on May 09, 2013, 12:49:47 AM
My arguments here are that age of the lens was mis represented; actual age is MORE THAN 3 TIMES THE MENTIONED AGE!!! Facts such as white box item and not bought from authorised canon dealer SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUT FORTH IN THE AD ITSELF. Also he said he did not have receipt indicating that he bought it 2 years ago. Considering the fact that incorrect details about the fungus were provided by the seller, I am not sure if he bought it 2 years ago or earlier.

Further, the condition of the lens is misrepresented. Saying that there is no fungus in lens when in fact there is, IS NOT ETHICAL. Also he didnt deny that there is fungal growth, but instead blames the buyer by saying you should have checked it first. Not sure what ethics he is talking about.

I'm sorry I'd have to agree with the seller more. If the seller declared that the item is without bill, it is fair that he bought the lens 2 years back and that's what he was aware of. Whether the lens was bought gray was something that should have been clear when the seller said 'no bill'.

Regarding the fungal growth, again, you nominated a person who was incharged with pre-buying inspection. Maybe the seller cheated you with the no fungus promise (I'm not taking sides here, I'm just assuming if he did), but the mere fact that you got it inspected should be a reason enough to believe that it was as promised on the date of sale.

The incident is unfortunate and rather is a gray area. There is no black and white here.
Since the seller is offering to get the lens serviced, I'd have to side with the seller here! And yes, thanks for those to-dos before buying glasses over the forum. They are very crucial here.

Quote from: zack2137 on May 24, 2013, 02:29:35 PM
I'm sorry I'd have to agree with the seller more. If the seller declared that the item is without bill, it is fair that he bought the lens 2 years back and that's what he was aware of. Whether the lens was bought gray was something that should have been clear when the seller said 'no bill'.

So, "No bill" always means grey? Or can it also mean that the bill cannot be found or is lost?

Quote from: zack2137 on May 24, 2013, 02:29:35 PM
Regarding the fungal growth, again, you nominated a person who was incharged with pre-buying inspection. Maybe the seller cheated you with the no fungus promise (I'm not taking sides here, I'm just assuming if he did), but the mere fact that you got it inspected should be a reason enough to believe that it was as promised on the date of sale.

The incident is unfortunate and rather is a gray area. There is no black and white here.
Since the seller is offering to get the lens serviced, I'd have to side with the seller here! And yes, thanks for those to-dos before buying glasses over the forum. They are very crucial here.

Before I had "nominated my cousin for pre-buying inspection", we had decided that I would do an online transfer to sellers account and he would send lens directly to me via his niece. Would my request for refund have been honored in that case, since I did not get a chance to "inspect" the lens beforehand? Just my luck my cousin could not spot these things during the inspection.

Anyways zack, thanks for your interesting views and best of luck for your sale deals in the forum :)

Quote from: thelightening on April 21, 2011, 11:23:02 AM
Hi,

  I am Arun (forum handle: thelightening). I have to share an experience about a person called Karthik (Infantblue) from Chennai.

  Based on this advertisment http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=8991.0  , I have called this person up and talked to him about the product he is interested to sell. Based on several calls and PM's we agreed for a price of 3000Rs. He clearly mentioned to me that, he is not interested to courier or ship this to Bangalore from his place, Chennai.

Based on this, I tried all the way and at last found a friends collegue, who used to go to Chennai frequently and requested him with the help of my friend to meet infantblue and complete the deal. It was soo hard to make him agree to get these things done, as its a business deal. Based on the arrangement, I have sent infant blue a detailed mail with all the contact details of mine, my friend and his collegue, then about the lens and everything. That single mail was enough to understand the professionalism of a business deal.

I have handed over the money to my friend collegue even to buy this. I called infantblue a lot of time and he didnt pick, but replied with some 1-2 sms about the confirmations. He told he will meet the guy coming from Bangalore and handover the stuffs.

This is on wed (20th april) , today morning (21Apr), I have got an sms from Karthik (infantblue) as follows;

"Hey, One of my friend is desperate to buy my lens for 3500. Anyway as it is only four thousand there in bang, I believe its not an issue with you, I am extremely sorry"

I am taking this as a kind of cheating and the efforts, calls, PM's what we made and agreed is of no value. Rs 500 is great??? If then he might have not committed for 3000Rs at all.

I have did a lot of transactions with other jjmf members , even after receiving the money in the evening in my account, went out , bought packing materials, packed and shipped before courier guy close his store.... I feel thats commitment. Not this one, at least for 500Rs.

Thats the reason why I am sharing my experience over here and it will help my jjmf forum members. Thanks for your patience to read my whole experience. Hope it helps.

Moderator Note:
It is the judgment of the Moderators that a meeting of the minds between buyer and seller took place. Therefore, a contract was in force, and the same contract was violated by the seller. The seller's account has been blocked, and his thread has been removed.

Similar experience for me too...

I went ahead & dropped a mail to the seller selling a canon 50mm 1.8 for 4000/- at http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,27663.0.html

he mentioned that he is out of Pune & will hold the lens for me until he comes back. also he mentioned that he had been approached by several others too & will let me know once he is back.

He updated the post as on Hold/booked.

Now yesterday I receive a mail mentioning that he is back, but he was contacted by a buyer who is willing to pay 4500/- for the lens & wanted me to confirm if I am interested for that price. :(

I replied back saying that "I am interested in the lens for the price that was initially quoted in the post"

Now today I see he updated his post with Expected price : 4500/-
Also reason being, the buyer (assuming to be me or many others like me)
backed out.
So basically, its clear that there was no buyer who wanted buy it for 4500/- else he would not have updated the price, rather would have mentioned that the lens is booked for another person.

The buyer might be right, but its all about a person's integrity. He should have studied the market rates before committing it any seller
Not sure, if this is an offense or not but wanted to make reputed members & new joiners to be aware before showing interest in deals....at least with people who have very less reputation (posts might be the wrong word here) on the forum.

Thanks !!

Pankaj

Quote from: abhivg on May 26, 2013, 07:01:15 PM
So, "No bill" always means grey? Or can it also mean that the bill cannot be found or is lost?

No, but its general prudence to know where the bill and warranty papers are. Not that the buyer is correct in withholding the information, but lack of general prudence puts you in the same shoes. And upon inquiry if you realize that the item never had a bill, it should ring a bell. If at all it didn't, it makes a case for the seller that he bought the lens from a person of his choice and that he never promised/ was aware that the lens is from a more recent batch.

Quote from: abhivg on May 26, 2013, 07:01:15 PMBefore I had "nominated my cousin for pre-buying inspection", we had decided that I would do an online transfer to sellers account and he would send lens directly to me via his niece. Would my request for refund have been honored in that case, since I did not get a chance to "inspect" the lens beforehand? Just my luck my cousin could not spot these things during the inspection.

Yes, you had a case there. And frankly so, if it was agreed beforehand that a refund is to be granted if the lens fails a physical inspection. But most ads that I've seen on JJMF put a condition that all inspections have to be made beforehand.
Now nominating your cousin for inspection is as good as you inspecting the glass in person. If he is not proficient with lenses and their functioning, you could have asked the seller to send the lens with his niece, inspect it in person and then pay her niece to be 100% sure of what you are buying.

Having said the above, I believe the seller has misrepresented the item for sale and exploited the inherent limitation of buy-and-sell forums. A case could also be made that the seller himself wasn't aware of the fungal growth, since it never showed on the pictures. What really happened here, is for the mods to decide.

My $$0.02

Quote from: abhivg on May 26, 2013, 07:01:15 PMAnyways zack, thanks for your interesting views and best of luck for your sale deals in the forum :)

Thanks, I'm actually trying to sell a couple of things, using JJMF for the first time! This has garnered my interest somehow! :)

Quote from: abhivg on May 26, 2013, 07:01:15 PM

Quote from: zack2137 on May 24, 2013, 02:29:35 PM
I'm sorry I'd have to agree with the seller more. If the seller declared that the item is without bill, it is fair that he bought the lens 2 years back and that's what he was aware of. Whether the lens was bought gray was something that should have been clear when the seller said 'no bill'.

So, "No bill" always means grey? Or can it also mean that the bill cannot be found or is lost?

"No Bill" means that Nikon India will treat it exactly as it would a grey item (viz. you would need to pay for all repairs/servicing).

Nikon India, not only needs the original bill, but also the warranty card. BOTH need to be presented together (just one or the other will not suffice). They may consider exceptions - but those will only be exceptions and not thought of as a rule.

This is confirmed many times from Nikon Service on Richmond Road Bangalore and here's what their site says:
2) To validate this warranty card, you are requested to fill in all necessary information (owner's name, address, telephone number, e-mail address and date of purchase) on the front. This warranty card together with the original purchase receipt must be presented to the Nikon authorized service facility before any repair can be made under warranty.

I feel the need to clarify this for all those who buy Nikon equipment under the impression that it's under warranty when it's advertised as "with warranty card but can't find bill" or "Scanned copy of bill available" ..... it's not. It's exactly the same as buying an item without a bill or warranty.

As the warranty kicks in only from the date of sale and as items sometimes lie in stock for 2+ years, Nikon India needs BOTH bill and warranty.

PS: Writing this here as the other day I got a call from a fellow member who bought an item from a well known store in Burma Market and was assured by the shop keeper that as he had the warranty card stamped, there wasn't a need for a bill (that's how the shop reduced the price - to avoid tax). To Nikon India - that is still a grey item and they won't honour the warranty.

Quote from: VikramF on May 27, 2013, 11:49:06 AM

Quote from: abhivg on May 26, 2013, 07:01:15 PM

Quote from: zack2137 on May 24, 2013, 02:29:35 PM
I'm sorry I'd have to agree with the seller more. If the seller declared that the item is without bill, it is fair that he bought the lens 2 years back and that's what he was aware of. Whether the lens was bought gray was something that should have been clear when the seller said 'no bill'.

So, "No bill" always means grey? Or can it also mean that the bill cannot be found or is lost?

"No Bill" means that Nikon India will treat it exactly as it would a grey item (viz. you would need to pay for all repairs/servicing).

Nikon India, not only needs the original bill, but also the warranty card. BOTH need to be presented together (just one or the other will not suffice). They may consider exceptions - but those will only be exceptions and not thought of as a rule.

This is confirmed many times from Nikon Service on Richmond Road Bangalore and here's what their site says:
2) To validate this warranty card, you are requested to fill in all necessary information (owner's name, address, telephone number, e-mail address and date of purchase) on the front. This warranty card together with the original purchase receipt must be presented to the Nikon authorized service facility before any repair can be made under warranty.

I feel the need to clarify this for all those who buy Nikon equipment under the impression that it's under warranty when it's advertised as "with warranty card but can't find bill" or "Scanned copy of bill available" ..... it's not. It's exactly the same as buying an item without a bill or warranty.

As the warranty kicks in only from the date of sale and as items sometimes lie in stock for 2+ years, Nikon India needs BOTH bill and warranty.

PS: Writing this here as the other day I got a call from a fellow member who bought an item from a well known store in Burma Market and was assured by the shop keeper that as he had the warranty card stamped, there wasn't a need for a bill (that's how the shop reduced the price - to avoid tax). To Nikon India - that is still a grey item and they won't honour the warranty.

But in Kolkata , Nikon Service center asks for either of one . They even know the big shop names and they know they do not provide bill , they just stamp the warranty card with Shop Seal . So they give full warranty with the stamped warranty card only . This is for all Nikon Camera and Lenses. Even I had the similar idea that one needs both to be presented at the time of claim , but last time I was in Nikon to Service one of my lenses and I produced a stamped Warranty card of my D700 , they said "yes, we accept this for any warranty claim we know this shop does not provide bill. "

Quote from: ras on May 27, 2013, 07:03:26 PM
But in Kolkata , Nikon Service center asks for either of one . They even know the big shop names and they know they do not provide bill , they just stamp the warranty card with Shop Seal . So they give full warranty with the stamped warranty card only . This is for all Nikon Camera and Lenses.

I'd like to know what they'd do when faced with the prospect of an expensive repair ..... stick by Nikon India's rules or go with 'local understanding'.

I think it would be the former as over a certain cost, they'll need their supervisors approval (I assume they have such systems in place).

Here are Nikon India's rules on their website: http://www.nikon.co.in/en_IN/warranty.page

Quote from: VikramF on May 27, 2013, 07:09:15 PM

Quote from: ras on May 27, 2013, 07:03:26 PM
But in Kolkata , Nikon Service center asks for either of one . They even know the big shop names and they know they do not provide bill , they just stamp the warranty card with Shop Seal . So they give full warranty with the stamped warranty card only . This is for all Nikon Camera and Lenses.

I'd like to know what they'd do when faced with the prospect of an expensive repair ..... stick by Nikon India's rules or go with 'local understanding'.

I think it would be the former as over a certain cost, they'll need their supervisors approval (I assume they have such systems in place).

Here are Nikon India's rules on their website: http://www.nikon.co.in/en_IN/warranty.page

Actually, same thing happened for me at the Richmond road service centre. Got my D7000's sensor cleaned and calibrated for a back focus issue for free. They just checked the stamped warranty card (explained that i had left the bill at Chennai).

Seems that post was missed by the mods... :(

Not so lucky here in Gurgaon. They ask for both Bill and Warranty Card.

Quote from: zack2137 on May 27, 2013, 11:35:50 AM
No, but its general prudence to know where the bill and warranty papers are. Not that the buyer is correct in withholding the information, but lack of general prudence puts you in the same shoes. And upon inquiry if you realize that the item never had a bill, it should ring a bell. If at all it didn't, it makes a case for the seller that he bought the lens from a person of his choice and that he never promised/ was aware that the lens is from a more recent batch.

Pardon my ignorance but I am a first time buyer so not really accustomed to thinking like you do :). My posts in this thread are proof enough of my stupidity in handling this deal :).
In my defense, I had asked the seller if the lens was bought "new" and he said yes. I trusted the seller on this. I am aware of the quality of a "NEW" Canon L lens, whether grey (I consider grey as a new item but without bill/warranty) or original, so went ahead with it. Is it still my prerogative to have questioned the seller on whereabouts of the bill and identity of the person he bought it from? Does lack of awareness on seller's behalf of age/quality of sold item free him of the responsibility of suitably correcting the deal if he is made aware of it later? If that makes a case for the seller, I am afraid this is not a buyer's market at all. If so, I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy through this medium.

Quote from: zack2137 on May 27, 2013, 11:35:50 AM
Yes, you had a case there. And frankly so, if it was agreed beforehand that a refund is to be granted if the lens fails a physical inspection. But most ads that I've seen on JJMF put a condition that all inspections have to be made beforehand.
Now nominating your cousin for inspection is as good as you inspecting the glass in person. If he is not proficient with lenses and their functioning, you could have asked the seller to send the lens with his niece, inspect it in person and then pay her niece to be 100% sure of what you are buying.

I am not sure what "having a case" would mean then, but based on past events I am quiet sure seller would not have refunded my money in that case either. I had asked seller if I could give money to his niece in cash when she delivers the lens to me. The seller said that that is not possible.

Quote from: zack2137 on May 27, 2013, 11:35:50 AM
A case could also be made that the seller himself wasn't aware of the fungal growth, since it never showed on the pictures. What really happened here, is for the mods to decide.

The seller himself said that the lens was cleaned for fungus 3 months back, albeit only when I bought it up. He also mentions that he is a "professional photographer" and he stays in Mumbai. Now I find it hard to believe that a pro photographer working in Mumbai was unaware of whether there is fungal growth in a lens which he himself got cleaned for fungus 3 months back. His responsibility of properly checking for fungal growth becomes even more important given the fact that he puts up the item for sale. Further he has put up  pictures of the lens elements (at certain specific angles) to show that the inside is clean. Could he have missed the fungus when inspecting the lens and taking those images? Again, hard to believe.

Also seller states: "being a photographer in business, keeping in mind certain ethics, i would never even offer any equipment on sale if it is damaged or cannot be used. I'd rather get it repaired or discard it, if beyond repairs". Does this mean that he was aware of the fungus, but deduced that it does not affect image quality and can be put up for sale? In that case shouldn't lens condition be mentioned as "With slight fungus but does not affect image quality" instead of "Clean without fungus"??

What I can deduce from this is he was aware that this lens was fungus prone and either did not bother to check it properly before selling it OR tried to get rid of a fungus infected lens and fully/partially recover whatever he spent on it in the first place. In either case why should I be paying the cost of his mistake/(feigned?)ignorance?

Giving him the benefit of doubt, I would like to make same point again; shouldn't a morally (I know, heavy word in today's day and age :) ) responsible seller take appropriate (keyword here being appropriate) action to make up for a faulty deal, if at all due to lack of knowledge on his part? Does a "2 year old lens without any fungus" equate to "a 7 year old lens recently cleaned for fungus", I don't think so.

It's not like he would have made a loss or something with the refund, so why is he still willing to face legal consequences which I am going ahead with. My deduction from this is that he is happy to get rid of a fungus prone lens and recover his money.

Quote from: pankaj21 on May 27, 2013, 11:09:34 PM
Seems that post was missed by the mods... :(

Not a question of missed. The thread was seen. Nowhere in the thread you have posted a buy request and the item blocked for you. This would be like going byword of mouth. A little more would be needed please.
Why don't users make it clear in the forum that they have offered to buy and item is booked for them? Would make moderation a little easier.

Quote from: abhivg on May 28, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
In my defense, I had asked the seller if the lens was bought "new" and he said yes. I trusted the seller on this. I am aware of the quality of a "NEW" Canon L lens, whether grey (I consider grey as a new item but without bill/warranty) or original, so went ahead with it. Is it still my prerogative to have questioned the seller on whereabouts of the bill and identity of the person he bought it from? Does lack of awareness on seller's behalf of age/quality of sold item free him of the responsibility of suitably correcting the deal if he is made aware of it later? If that makes a case for the seller, I am afraid this is not a buyer's market at all. If so, I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy through this medium.

I'm afraid I would have to say yes, the seller's ignorance of the age (and not quality) of the sold item is plausible. For example, I've 4 lenses right now (2 pro) but I never bothered to check when were they manufactured or the batch they belong to. I've the bill and for me, that's the date my warranty began from.
If on the other hand I don't have the bill, I won't have any basis to establish the age of the lens. In that case, I'd tell my buyers that I don't have the bill but I bought it from some XYZ dealer on ABC date (which obviously tells the duration of ownership).

Quote from: abhivg on May 28, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
I had asked seller if I could give money to his niece in cash when she delivers the lens to me. The seller said that that is not possible.

This is a new fact and doesn't goes with my assumption! Not the best of the conditions this!

Quote from: abhivg on May 28, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
...Further he has put up  pictures of the lens elements (at certain specific angles) to show that the inside is clean. Could he have missed the fungus when inspecting the lens and taking those images? Again, hard to believe.

Were the pictures recent? can you deduce if the fungus should have been visible in the pictures posted by the seller?

Quote from: abhivg on May 28, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
..In that case shouldn't lens condition be mentioned as "With slight fungus but does not affect image quality" instead of "Clean without fungus"??

What I can deduce from this is he was aware that this lens was fungus prone and either did not bother to check it properly before selling it OR tried to get rid of a fungus infected lens and fully/partially recover whatever he spent on it in the first place. In either case why should I be paying the cost of his mistake/(feigned?)ignorance?

See.. my point here is .. this was not a fraud deal.. Yes, it was grossly misrepresented. 'Clean without fungus' can be constructed as a lens which was infected but then serviced and cleaned (just a point of view). Since the seller hid the fact that the lens was serviced recently and the fact that fungus is known to grow even after cleaning, the buyer obviously misled with his ad.

In a potential deal with a similar background, general prudence would dictate that the buyer inspect and satisfy himself of the quality of lens before buying it, which was exercised in your case.
Since the fungus was cleaned (as per the seller) and as highlighted above, the seller might have missed it (just like your cousin), the seller acknowledged his mistake and offered you a service, which is fair. The age of the lens factor is something even I've not checked ever (have bought a prime and a 16-85 from a fellow forum) and wasn't even committed.

Quote from: abhivg on May 28, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
Giving him the benefit of doubt, I would like to make same point again; shouldn't a morally (I know, heavy word in today's day and age :) ) responsible seller take appropriate (keyword here being appropriate) action to make up for a faulty deal, if at all due to lack of knowledge on his part? Does a "2 year old lens without any fungus" equate to "a 7 year old lens recently cleaned for fungus", I don't think so.

As mentioned above, he did offer an appropriate action.

Quote from: abhivg on May 28, 2013, 07:26:07 PM
It's not like he would have made a loss or something with the refund, so why is he still willing to face legal consequences which I am going ahead with. My deduction from this is that he is happy to get rid of a fungus prone lens and recover his money.

I've both bought and sold a couple of lenses through forums in the past. As a potential seller of 3 lenses and some accessories (as on today), I can understand the position of the buyer when he says that he has invested the money and doesn't possesses it anymore.

Having said all of the above, if I was in your shoes, I would do exactly the same, that is, the legal route. I cannot understand the pain of losing hard earned money as much as you can do at the moment. I would also like to appreciate your positive and receptive attitude through these discussions. Much respect! :)

The Moderators' recent effort to engage seller Saurabh Pandit in pursuit of an amicable solution to the lens problem has been ignored. It is the view of the Moderators that the seller has engaged in willful misrepresentation of a product offered, and has clearly demonstrated a lack of interest in setting things right. In order to bring this matter into compliance with Rule 29a, the seller's account has been permanently locked.

However I must mention here that the fault here was not entirely unilateral. The buyer has also for some reason, probably hurry to buy a good item at a good price, not taken all possible precautions to safeguard his own interests. Much of this has been discussed above and I do not wish to ponder on the same points again.

Fellow Members,

A relatively long discussion about possible improvements to the Forum followed Doc's post above. I have split that discussion off to the following new thread:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,28502.msg278239.html#new

This way the discussion can be explored to its fullest without diluting the purpose of FROWNS, which is for the expressed purpose of helping Members learn from deals gone bad, and how to avoid the same.

:)

Hi

I recently purchased a Minolta 50 1.2 from user anshusen (forum user name).

Here (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,28912.0.html) is the link to the ad.
In short, the ad stated the condition of the lens as "Item Condition: glass is clean, fungus free, dust free. no hazyness. body has minor signs of use. no dent. aperture ring and focus is smooth". Once I received the lens, I placed it with my other lenses in my cabinet which is dehumidified and couldn't check immediately as I had to travel to bangalore for office work. On the weekend after I returned, I got a chance to check it thoroughly and found that the lens had a lot of minor marks and fungus on the glass.

I posted the photos of the lens here (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,29329.0.html) just to have a few opinion from the forum members about the fungus. I was in conversation with anshusen but he kept saying that Pune is wet and humid and the fungus grew after it reached me. I sent a lot of fungus related gyaan and also posted as mentioned above. I sent the link to him as well and now he has stopped responding. The general opinion is that so much fungus cannot grow in the 10 days that the lens was with me (esp in the dehumidified cabinet). When I asked him about the condition of the glass (before buying), I had asked if the aperture ring is smooth and whether there is oil on the blades. He had no idea about it and asked me the significance of it (I have the PMs). It could be an indication that he didn't have much experience on checking lenses.

I tried holding the lens at the same angles as in the ad and sure enough, you cant make out any issue. Even in the shot through the lens, due to the bright scene, it is not possible to make out any fungus.

I've bought, sold and owned a lot of old glass and I've utilized a lot of modern buying avenues. I've had some great transactions on this forum and a lot in other forums as well. Even my transactions on ebay were pleasant. This is the first time I found myself in this position. Nevertheless, I think I can make something out of it since he is not responding. But I intend to take a couple of shots of the same lens in two weeks and post again. That should blow his theory right out of the water.

Ask for the full resolution versions of the shots of the lens that were put up in the WTS thread and post them along with the shots of the lens that you posted for feedback.

Mods, maybe a recommendation to post high resolution photographs of items for sale in the rules would help.

Quote from: Bharat Varma on August 09, 2013, 06:22:01 AM
Ask for the full resolution versions of the shots of the lens that were put up in the WTS thread and post them along with the shots of the lens that you posted for feedback.

Mods, maybe a recommendation to post high resolution photographs of items for sale in the rules would help.

+1

Resolution should be at least 2000 * 1000  :)

Quote from: SAHARSH on August 09, 2013, 12:13:22 PM

Quote from: Bharat Varma on August 09, 2013, 06:22:01 AM
Ask for the full resolution versions of the shots of the lens that were put up in the WTS thread and post them along with the shots of the lens that you posted for feedback.

Mods, maybe a recommendation to post high resolution photographs of items for sale in the rules would help.

+1

Resolution should be at least 2000 * 1000  :)

+1

Brought a vivitar flash from "srb"


Flash was reported working and good condition, on receipt the aa battery holder was not present. used my spare battery holder and the flash does not power up neither does the capacitor charge up. its completely dead.

Just Got to know that he is not as honest as he claims to be .

I WOULD RECOMMEND PEOPLE TO BE CAREFUL in dealings with him

Name : sarbajoy paul
Email Address : sarbajoypaul17@gmail.com
Phone Number : 09916784214
Phone Number : 09836411252


Latest Update : Now he tell me that i have made the flash bad by using high capacity batteries. ( I only use duracells or eneloops )
And his explanation is that there must have been dust inside and high capacity batteries may have damaged this. The Flash which apparently he never tried and that too an HV flash which can be used with a 110 ( us voltage ) which also i told him before as well and said he may have tried using it with 240volts. My first communication to him was he should give me the sb4 which was 110 volts so he would have to give me a step down convertor as well.

All this while giving me no money stories and then then when i seen him post a want to buy i asked him now how he had the money and he said he wanted to buy for a friend.

All this while only lies from him.
1. Flash in good working condition ( he said he never tried it himself and only tried it when he was sold the flash )
2. He doesn't like flashes so he was selling his ONLY flash as he did not want to keep it, that was his reason for sale, (then his inventory comes with a starblitz flash.)
3. Now saying that i have damaged the flash. he doesn't even know what rubbish he talks and gives as explanations.
4. He did not have any digital camera, yet he found one to shoot with on a 10 day trip ( he only told me he only has a film camera., but then suddenly he has a digital as well as money for 10 day trips, all this from someone who saves only 300 rs a month.)


I am now going to throw away this flash as its a piece of junk, the 2000rs is wasted and i know i am not going to get it back.
But i will pay him a visit in Bangalore, as i want to see what this cheat looks like and see how he can lie to me face to face.

Again a warning to everyone deal at your own riisk

Did you discuss this issue with the seller before posting here? If so, what was the response?

Quote from: Bharat Varma on August 20, 2013, 03:44:07 PM
Did you discuss this issue with the seller before posting here? If so, what was the response?

i put in a sms that if i did not hear i was posting it here..

I also gave the benefit of doubt by keeping it with batteries hoping that i could form the capacitors before i smsed .

if he has anything to say i would be more than happy to hear the same. 

I stand by my earlier comment. Please do not deal with this " Peniless, student story teller"

One suggestion from me. One should ask for his facebook Id. If any such cases happens in future.. We could atleast spoil his so called virtual social reputation.

So  guys asks for a facebook id from person before buying any item.

Quote from: toofan on August 23, 2013, 10:49:20 PM
One suggestion from me. One should ask for his facebook Id. If any such cases happens in future.. We could atleast spoil his so called virtual social reputation.

So  guys asks for a facebook id from person before buying any item.

are you sure that might work? you post one derogatory comment in his wall and the next moment he will block you and remove that posting. simple.

see, the whole buy n sell thingy works on trust here. if the seller is not honest, then the buyer will have no option to recover money spent on an item. whatever way we discuss here, nothing gonna work as once the item is sold, liability ends there from seller's perspective. sad, but that's the fact.

cheers!
soumya

Well trust is important and one should not let a few bad transactions affect how we deal. What we learn is take a few more precautionary steps than normal.   Naming and shaming on social networks is not a good way to approach a bad transaction. That is the persons personal  space and not and extension of the forum. What happens here must stay here. A simple alert to other users is recommended. We may want to argue about the approach and rationalize that the person must be named and shamed everywhere, a little restraint goes a long way. Warning other users on the forum should be priority one if no resolution appears.

I would be good if you detail your issue with the flash seller a bit more. I recall you posted that it was resolved before editing your post again.

Predators are on the Prowl on our Forum. Victimizing genuine members and with so much innocence the unsuspecting buyer ends up in a Bad Transaction.where does he turn? What would be his recourse?
Nothing.
You do all possible things to garner support from within the community, but to no avail.
I have been a victim this week and these scamsters have enough gumption to be hurt when we are candid. Their pleading, whining ritual is the key of their success.
Without naming I got dlivered a Camera with No Papers. Why? He forgot. When Money went in his account he was not busy. Anyways, Box with different Serial Number than the body. No Manual, Software CDs, No Warranty as promised.
Well these are the Vagaries of buying from unknown Predators. I have learnt a bitter lesson, buy the equipments physically and not online.
For few good fellas, these Predators scare the entire lot away.
And each time they have different Aliases.
Sure there are awesome members with whom I have dealt in past, but it just takes one bad transaction to put your reasoning in COMA.
Happy sharing Folks
Baggi

Quote from: baggi aswani on September 03, 2013, 05:31:06 PM
Predators are on the Prowl on our Forum. Victimizing genuine members and with so much innocence the unsuspecting buyer ends up in a Bad Transaction.where does he turn? What would be his recourse?
Nothing.
You do all possible things to garner support from within the community, but to no avail.
I have been a victim this week and these scamsters have enough gumption to be hurt when we are candid. Their pleading, whining ritual is the key of their success.
Without naming I got dlivered a Camera with No Papers. Why? He forgot. When Money went in his account he was not busy. Anyways, Box with different Serial Number than the body. No Manual, Software CDs, No Warranty as promised.
Well these are the Vagaries of buying from unknown Predators. I have learnt a bitter lesson, buy the equipments physically and not online.
For few good fellas, these Predators scare the entire lot away.
And each time they have different Aliases.
Sure there are awesome members with whom I have dealt in past, but it just takes one bad transaction to put your reasoning in COMA.
Happy sharing Folks
Baggi

It would be a good idea to name and shame the sellers, if the seller has not delivered the goods as promised and is not cooperating after the sale. Saves us some headache and we too can also not deal with them in the future.

Quote from: tapobrata_tb on September 03, 2013, 05:51:00 PM

Quote from: baggi aswani on September 03, 2013, 05:31:06 PM
Predators are on the Prowl on our Forum. Victimizing genuine members and with so much innocence the unsuspecting buyer ends up in a Bad Transaction.where does he turn? What would be his recourse?
Nothing.
You do all possible things to garner support from within the community, but to no avail.
I have been a victim this week and these scamsters have enough gumption to be hurt when we are candid. Their pleading, whining ritual is the key of their success.
Without naming I got dlivered a Camera with No Papers. Why? He forgot. When Money went in his account he was not busy. Anyways, Box with different Serial Number than the body. No Manual, Software CDs, No Warranty as promised.
Well these are the Vagaries of buying from unknown Predators. I have learnt a bitter lesson, buy the equipments physically and not online.
For few good fellas, these Predators scare the entire lot away.
And each time they have different Aliases.
Sure there are awesome members with whom I have dealt in past, but it just takes one bad transaction to put your reasoning in COMA.
Happy sharing Folks
Baggi

It would be a good idea to name and shame the sellers, if the seller has not delivered the goods as promised and is not cooperating after the sale. Saves us some headache and we too can also not deal with them in the future.

Yes, that would be helpful to others. A sort of blacklist, if you will, of members to shy away from.

Quote from: maraque on September 03, 2013, 06:36:32 PM

Quote from: tapobrata_tb on September 03, 2013, 05:51:00 PM

Quote from: baggi aswani on September 03, 2013, 05:31:06 PM
Predators are on the Prowl on our Forum. Victimizing genuine members and with so much innocence the unsuspecting buyer ends up in a Bad Transaction.where does he turn? What would be his recourse?
Nothing.
You do all possible things to garner support from within the community, but to no avail.
I have been a victim this week and these scamsters have enough gumption to be hurt when we are candid. Their pleading, whining ritual is the key of their success.
Without naming I got dlivered a Camera with No Papers. Why? He forgot. When Money went in his account he was not busy. Anyways, Box with different Serial Number than the body. No Manual, Software CDs, No Warranty as promised.
Well these are the Vagaries of buying from unknown Predators. I have learnt a bitter lesson, buy the equipments physically and not online.
For few good fellas, these Predators scare the entire lot away.
And each time they have different Aliases.
Sure there are awesome members with whom I have dealt in past, but it just takes one bad transaction to put your reasoning in COMA.
Happy sharing Folks
Baggi

It would be a good idea to name and shame the sellers, if the seller has not delivered the goods as promised and is not cooperating after the sale. Saves us some headache and we too can also not deal with them in the future.

Yes, that would be helpful to others. A sort of blacklist, if you will, of members to shy away from.

Certainly can empathise with you. Nevertheless, sharing the deatails of such predators will serve as a simple alert to other members which is quite necessary & highly recommended.

Few days back, in another post of mine I had indicated that I will consider posting in 'FROWNS' about my recent experience of buying a Canon EF 100mm F2.8 Macro USM Lens. I suppose the time has come as I have given up on the Seller contacting me despite my multiple emails and also phone calls.

The main purpose of highlighting this episode is only to warn the fellow members & to caution them about such unscrupulous sellers on the prowl in this forum.

This narration of my experience is more to bring forth the fact that you could become the victim of an unscrupulous Seller and nothing much can be done about it. The Seller in my case is 'xclncsurat' (Excellency Surat) a newbie with 32 posts & the other details in the WTS link below:

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,28796.0.html

Had a word with the seller over phone before I did the FT. He confirmed that the lens is 8 months old & in very good condition 10/10. On receiving the lens (on 14 Aug 2013), I was suprised to see it was very dirty & didn't looked new as claimed in the WTS thread. On further scrutiny I was shocked to see the build up of fungus in the elements visible to the eye, when viewed at an angle. (Would like to mention that fungus was not visible in the photographs posted in the WTS thread).

Immediately, I communicated to him about the state of the lens by email as his phone was not reachable. Next day being a holiday (15 Aug), took the lens to Canon India Master Service Centre, Bangalore on 16 Aug 13 & deposited for fungus removal & cleaning of the lens on chargable basis as the lens was not under warranty.

The feedback from the Service engineer who did the servicing was that the entire innards (the moveable lens elements, USM & other parts) of the lens was fully infested with fungus. The lens had to be dismantled completely & thoroughly cleaned to remove fungus/dust etc. The service engineer also confirmed that in spite of his best efforts only 80% fungus could be removed, which was the maximum he could do as the fungus on the inside of the front element is inaccessible (front element is sealed). hence, can't be removed. Its' still visible now.

The only alternative is to replace the front element which costs about Rs.12,000/=. Considering the high replacement cost he asked me to use it in the existing condition only as it will not affect the photography. Got the lens back on 22 Aug 2013 evening.

I did manage to reach the seller on 26 Aug 2013 thru phone & updated him on the status of the lens. He refused to accept that the lens had fungus & was reiterating that he had sent a new clean lens (8 month old). When I enquired if he had seen my mails & why didn't he respond, he replied that he is travelling, busy shooting some doc film & will respond to my mails within 2 days. I am still waiting for that 2 days to get over.

The net outcome of this deal is that I have purchased a not-so-new macro lens with fungus for 25K (+courier Chgs of Rs.1100), got it serviced by paying Rs. 2248/= which still has fungus on the front element that can't be removed.

Based on my unpleasant experience, I caution members to refrain from buying anything from 'xclncsurat' if he ever does post in the WTS board. People like him join forums to hoodwink buyers knowing fully well that he (Seller) cannot be traced and palm off a defective item.

I sincerely wish that no member will have to undergo similar experience as mine.

PS: Have attached the payment receipt & Service Report of Canon India Master Service Centre which contains all the details of the lens & the comments of the engineer.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Kundan Singh-- from the original post for sale.

Incidentally he is making a film called "SATARKTA" (Awareness) , now it is our turn to be "SATARK "(careful) about him. I gleaned all this info from his posts in his thread for sale of the lens.

Very unfortunate that this happened. It is good that you have revealed the Forum name of this Seller (and Tapo for his actual name).

The user in question has been sent a message to clarify. Let's see if a reply if forthcoming.

Quote from: meetshany on September 13, 2013, 08:37:54 PM
Thats aweful... It would be good if you mention his full name too - as he can change his ID and start using the forum again....

His full Name is Kundan Kumar Basudev Singh.

If I were to buy something expensive :

1. I will buy from people of proven standing - Else
2. Personally inspect before buying
3. Have a friend inspect before buying
4. Do the deal face to face (my face or friends face).

I will never risk "long distance" buying from all and sundry. Never.

Quote from: Image on September 14, 2013, 02:27:25 AM
If I were to buy something expensive :

1. I will buy from people of proven standing - Else
2. Personally inspect before buying
3. Have a friend inspect before buying
4. Do the deal face to face (my face or friends face).

I will never risk "long distance" buying from all and sundry. Never.

So true..... feel your pain Ramstrong  :'(

 A very unfortunate and sad incident indeed.
+1 with IMAGE......as a seller and of course as a buyer let other inspect my item and inspect sellers' goods for sale, either by me or through a friend ....always.
'Trust' is good....but in some cases....a distant dream!!!!  :( ???

Quote from: Image on September 14, 2013, 02:27:25 AM
If I were to buy something expensive :

1. I will buy from people of proven standing - Else
2. Personally inspect before buying
3. Have a friend inspect before buying
4. Do the deal face to face (my face or friends face).

I will never risk "long distance" buying from all and sundry. Never.

True, but hard to implement always. Sometimes you have to go on faith, which may not be reciprocated.

Quote from: maraque on September 14, 2013, 10:52:07 AM

Quote from: Image on September 14, 2013, 02:27:25 AM
If I were to buy something expensive :

1. I will buy from people of proven standing - Else
2. Personally inspect before buying
3. Have a friend inspect before buying
4. Do the deal face to face (my face or friends face).

I will never risk "long distance" buying from all and sundry. Never.

True, but hard to implement always. Sometimes you have to go on faith, which may not be reciprocated.

Not really. You just need to be able to let a 'good deal' go by. That takes unholy strength  :P .


Otherwise it's a leap of faith to buy something unseen from someone who has no 'standing'.


Even then, it's quite possible that the person selling isn't aware of an issue because they might know how/what to check - I've seen a lot of folks who can't spot fungus for example. I've also seen folks who think a tiny spot of dust is fungus that will ruin a lens ....


I personally believe the fool proof method is #2. Though I've gone by #1 a number of times too.

Quote from: maraque on September 14, 2013, 10:52:07 AM

Quote from: Image on September 14, 2013, 02:27:25 AM
If I were to buy something expensive :

1. I will buy from people of proven standing - Else
2. Personally inspect before buying
3. Have a friend inspect before buying
4. Do the deal face to face (my face or friends face).

I will never risk "long distance" buying from all and sundry. Never.

True, but hard to implement always. Sometimes you have to go on faith, which may not be reciprocated.

Which part is so hard to implement ?

Quote from: Image on September 14, 2013, 05:56:16 PM

Quote from: maraque on September 14, 2013, 10:52:07 AM

Quote from: Image on September 14, 2013, 02:27:25 AM
If I were to buy something expensive :

1. I will buy from people of proven standing - Else
2. Personally inspect before buying
3. Have a friend inspect before buying
4. Do the deal face to face (my face or friends face).

I will never risk "long distance" buying from all and sundry. Never.

True, but hard to implement always. Sometimes you have to go on faith, which may not be reciprocated.

Which part is so hard to implement ?

Okay, wrong choice of wording.

What I meant was, it's not always possible to meet the buyer face-to-face, hence you cannot check the item personally, since a lot of deals carried out here are inter-city deals.

Plus, the seller might be from a place where you might not happen to have friends to check it out.

For point #1 we have the GRINS section. But then some good deals might happen with members who are not mentioned there. And taking that leap of faith by some of us is what gets them mentioned there in the first place.

Trust is expensive don't expect it from cheap people - Warren Buffet

I faced this music 2-3 times, seller sending a bad item or not clearly telling me the status - lesson learnt. But faced this after face to face interaction also once. I went, checked the lens and paid after few days... by the time seller got some dirty works on the lens and ultimately while picking i trusted him and didn't check lens properly as i have checked few days back- finally landed with a bummer and seller stopped picking calls.

So through check while picking is a must, a tell tale sign of lens opening are scratch or marks near the outer rim ( there are two holes there to open lens front element). Same with rear element if the screws have scratch marks on them or on barrel means its opened.

QuoteOkay, wrong choice of wording. What I meant was, it's not always possible to meet the buyer face-to-face, hence you cannot check the item personally, since a lot of deals carried out here are inter-city deals.

I understood your intent.

QuotePlus, the seller might be from a place where you might not happen to have friends to check it out.

If I am buying an expensive lens (expensive is relative) for a good value, it might be worth travelling, if possible. Else, I will not buy. Its as simple as that. My life is already complicated. No need to add more head aches to the many I already have.

QuoteFor point #1 we have the GRINS section. But then some good deals might happen with members who are not mentioned there. And taking that leap of faith by some of us is what gets them mentioned there in the first place.

Yes. That is what I meant by people of repute. I will also make independent enquiries where possible.

If you went ahead because the deal was irresistible, and then got punched in the face, you should use your own shoulder to cry  ;).

There is a saying in Kannada (and may be in many other languages) : ಕಣ್ಣಾರೆ ಕಂಡರೂ ಪರಾಂಬರಿಸಿ ನೋಡು ---> Even if you see with your own eyes, you should verify properly.

Quote from: kumarrishi on September 14, 2013, 06:28:04 PM
Trust is expensive don't expect it from cheap people - Warren Buffet

I faced this music 2-3 times, seller sending a bad item or not clearly telling me the status - lesson learnt. But faced this after face to face interaction also once. I went, checked the lens and paid after few days... by the time seller got some dirty works on the lens and ultimately while picking i trusted him and didn't check lens properly as i have checked few days back- finally landed with a bummer and seller stopped picking calls.

So through check while picking is a must, a tell tale sign of lens opening are scratch or marks near the outer rim ( there are two holes there to open lens front element). Same with rear element if the screws have scratch marks on them or on barrel means its opened.

+1.  :(

WARNING NOTICE:

The following member has been banned from the forum for creating upto 10 ids that we're aware of and for using them to post the same item for sale at differing prices.

Name of member: Arun Raju
Location: Tambaram, Chennai

Known Aliases:
1. ar74339
2. Zipzaap
3. imapentaxman
4. Photobaba420
5. Arun Raju
6. Jamesbond
7. cheeseface700
8. rarun365
9. zipzaap
10. chok

Known Contact Details (there are additional details)
1. 9176320999
2. 8015288212
3. ar74339@gmail.com

He mainly deals with pentax stuff, but sells/buys other equipment too.

Any member dealing with him is doing so at their risk.

If anyone has more knowledge or suspects duplicate ids - please let any of the mods know via PM.

Fellow JJMPF Members,

It is the judgement of your Moderators that Member xlncsurat (location given as Surat) has willfully misrepresented a product sold through the JJMPF Buy & Sell Board.  Appeals to him for information to set this issue right with the buyer have gone unanswered.

Accordingly, and in order to maintain compliance with Buy & Sell Rule 29a, the account xlncsurat has been banned.

Quote from: Digital_Reality on September 17, 2013, 08:58:33 PM

Quote from: VikramF on September 16, 2013, 02:08:11 PM
WARNING NOTICE:

The following member has been banned from the forum for creating upto 10 ids that we're aware of and for using them to post the same item for sale at differing prices.

Name of member: Arun Raju
Location: Chennai

Known Aliases:
1. ar74339
2. Zipzaap
3. imapentaxman
4. Photobaba420
5. Arun Raju
6. Jamesbond
7. cheeseface700
8. rarun365
9. zipzaap
10. chok

Known Contact Details (there are additional details)
1. 9176320999
2. 8015288212
3. ar74339@gmail.com

He mainly deals with pentax stuff, but sells/buys other equipment too.

Any member dealing with him is doing so at their risk.

If anyone has more knowledge or suspects duplicate ids - please let any of the mods know via PM.

I was just wondering if he created 10 different email ids to create all these jjmf ids or only one email id?

If only one - then how come its allowed to create multiple JJMF ids with same email id? If multiple, then please mention other 9 email ids for other guys awareness.

He has mentioned here that the user creates new email IDs for every new JJMPF account that he creates: http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,30498.msg296847.html#msg296847

Some people really do have a lot of time on their hands.

Quote from: VikramF on September 16, 2013, 02:08:11 PM
WARNING NOTICE:

The following member has been banned from the forum for creating upto 10 ids that we're aware of and for using them to post the same item for sale at differing prices.

Name of member: Arun Raju
Location: Tambaram, Chennai

Known Aliases:
1. ar74339
2. Zipzaap
3. imapentaxman
4. Photobaba420
5. Arun Raju
6. Jamesbond
7. cheeseface700
8. rarun365
9. zipzaap
10. chok

Known Contact Details (there are additional details)
1. 9176320999
2. 8015288212
3. ar74339@gmail.com

He mainly deals with pentax stuff, but sells/buys other equipment too.

Any member dealing with him is doing so at their risk.

If anyone has more knowledge or suspects duplicate ids - please let any of the mods know via PM.

Thanks Vikram for the warning....
one more thing i would like to ask for if it's possible.
A readily available list for both grinned and frowned ppl which we can refer before doing any transaction. Otherwise even search option is also bit tough to get the correct details.Just a thought though :)  ....

thanks again.

Quote from: saiki00 on September 18, 2013, 11:33:13 AM

Quote from: VikramF on September 16, 2013, 02:08:11 PM
WARNING NOTICE:

The following member has been banned from the forum for creating upto 10 ids that we're aware of and for using them to post the same item for sale at differing prices.

Name of member: Arun Raju
Location: Tambaram, Chennai

Known Aliases:
1. ar74339
2. Zipzaap
3. imapentaxman
4. Photobaba420
5. Arun Raju
6. Jamesbond
7. cheeseface700
8. rarun365
9. zipzaap
10. chok

Known Contact Details (there are additional details)
1. 9176320999
2. 8015288212
3. ar74339@gmail.com

He mainly deals with pentax stuff, but sells/buys other equipment too.

Any member dealing with him is doing so at their risk.

If anyone has more knowledge or suspects duplicate ids - please let any of the mods know via PM.

Thanks Vikram for the warning....
one more thing i would like to ask for if it's possible.
A readily available list for both grinned and frowned ppl which we can refer before doing any transaction. Otherwise even search option is also bit tough to get the correct details.Just a thought though :)  ....

thanks again.

Right ! I was of the same opinion.... Not really for Grins section but if a list or a sticky thread is made for ppl whose ID hav been deactivated, blocked, they are identified for fraudnt transaction ! names can be appended to the list.
That would solve two purpose.
1. People can refer this list and can be alerted before making any transaction.
2. All future sellers can take it an example that cheating here is an offence and their name can be appended to the list if code of conduct is violated :)
Would bring at least some code of conduct in transactions between buyers and sellers

Quote from: Piyusht on September 18, 2013, 12:02:43 PM
Right ! I was of the same opinion.... Not really for Grins section but if a list or a sticky thread is made for ppl whose ID hav been deactivated, blocked, they are identified for fraudnt transaction ! names can be appended to the list.
That would solve two purpose.
1. People can refer this list and can be alerted before making any transaction.
2. All future sellers can take it an example that cheating here is an offence and their name can be appended to the list if code of conduct is violated :)
Would bring at least some code of conduct in transactions between buyers and sellers

Wouldn't it be redundant if you made a list of IDs which have already been blocked for cheating? It's not like the same ID can be reactivated again by the user himself. He has to send a mail to the moderators to reactivate it.

Quote from: maraque on September 18, 2013, 01:18:45 PM
Wouldn't it be redundant if you made a list of IDs which have already been blocked for cheating? It's not like the same ID can be reactivated again by the user himself. He has to send a mail to the moderators to reactivate it.

I am sorry if the words were not that elaborative :)

What I meant was, even if the IDs are multiple, the person would be same and so would be his personal info! This can be made available.
Just for example Mr X creates ID say ABC and shows misbehavior in one of his sale.
Now even if the ID has been deactivated by mods, the details shared by that person would not change, right ? like his bank account used to transfer the money, name, mobile number, Email ID. If this information is made available, you would get root of all misconducts.
Now no matter how many more IDs the person generates, personal information would mostly be same. I don't think people would change their bank accounts for each fraudulent transaction.

It was just a thought, can be modified, developed further with the help of all forum members and Moderators ( offcourse :D )

Mods would be the best people to think of that and pass on the opinion. The only ultimate thing any and every forum member would want would be 'Close to zero fraudulent transactions'

Fellow Members,

In the coming days you will notice that a number of posts in this thread have been removed. FROWNS is our "go-to" place to learn about deals gone bad and who did whatever.

In order to keep this thread as useful and concise as possible for the JJMPF Membership, comments which do not add pertinent information and facts about deals gone bad are subject to be removed.

Thank you for understanding. It's absolutely nothing personal, so please don't take it that way if one or more of your comments disappear while your Moderators set about to boil thinning soup down to a richer sauce.

Happy Day.

I'm generally one to ensure smooth deals and given my passion for gear, always work with buyers/sellers in ensuring the smoothest and flexible deals and upfront disclosure of all facts applicable to the sale.

I think my dealings with most forum members will testify the same too.

Imagine then, by surprise when a member repeatedly abuses the trust that we establish via our interactions.

This is to bring to call a forum member by the name Nightingales - Robert. Who posts for himself and on behalf of his brother, Roger.

They get in touch with me looking to buy the X-E1 body only from my post recently. A fair price agreed upon to Roger's liking after much internet searches etc., and the next day when he's supposed to pick it up, Roger decides to take a U-turn and retract his offer. Saying he's got a better deal elsewhere (which turns out isn't true, as you'll see how this deal ended) -

Anyway, so i, willing to be flexible and affecting a quick sale, agree to reduce the price yet again from the previously agreed price with Roger agreeing as it being reasonable and supposed to pick it up today. Imagine my surprise when he makes yet another U-Turn, the second time no less. And retracts his offer yet again, while i wait to close the deal and get on with my normal course of work. Since we're all hobbyists mostly and not dealers per se.

He gives me some excuses about getting a deal from Jayesh or something. Which is still more in price from our agreed second offer. All this after he mentions budget issues. Anyway, this has really left a bad taste in my dealings and the trust i place in people dealing from the forum as so far they've been 100% honest with me.

I felt it is better to call out such defaulters for who they are so people can deal with this sort with caution. I don't care about losing the sale so much, as im sure i'll manage the sale in anycase given my offering. I do however, abhor such errant and fickle-minded behaviour on public forum dealings.

JJMF Members be warned.

@pbafna --  Each and every time, I had put up an item for sale, there was always someone who booked it and assured me that they would pick it up the next day. Next day comes and goes but no sign of the buyer. Yes, it is very frustrating. I had a JJMPF member who did the same when I was visiting Kolkata, and gave me a low offer on the day I was about to return saying that he would buy it at the airport itself provided I agree to his offer. But since no money changed hands, I don't think I would need to mention his name here.

As sellers, we will have our share of such people. It requires a lot of patience to ensure that we are able to sell the item at a price of our liking.

@Tapobrata - Thanks for your inputs. The larger issue in the case i mentioned was the *repeated* offer placement and retracting. One time is something we take with a pinch of salt as sellers. Doing it again, and yet again going back on the offer, is surely a sign of fickle-minded non-competent dealing that i don't take kindly to. Hence the share of this matter with the forum.

Barring this, there have been far too many to mention people who have enquired and not come through with the final sale. That's ok. And not worth mentioning as much as hassle a double offender causes.

@Tapobrata - Once both parties have struck a deal then a contract has been formed. Breaking of this contract on not one but two occasions means I would never wish to deal with this individual EVER.

So its in the best interest if people are aware of such instances. Its a different scenario when there is some genuine issues in closing a deal (for instance if the buyer is in another city or if there is some illness in the family) .

Such people should be shamed so others can be warned to stay away.

Regarding the interaction with Roger as mentioned by Pramod, I bought a bag from him, and it was a very good experience.

We agreed on the price quoted by him, and even though it took some time for a friend to pick it up on my behalf, something like 3 weeks, he held on to the bag, and even inquired some days after the pickup as to whether all was fine. It was, and the bag was in exactly the condition described, no overselling or underselling.

I hope that the bad experience was more an aberration ...

Thanks,
ramsub

@Ramsub - good to hear that. Btw, Roger is also someone who i traded a D7000 Camera with successfully about a Year back. No after-trade enquiries etc. but that transaction atleast happened after repeated enquiries.

I felt i should share this present instance, only because of the repeated offer and retraction which really tested my patience.

Anyway, the cam in question has been sold too. This was an exceptionally bad experience and hence the share. If anything it is a call in general against such practices in the future for all members, myself included. Nothing beats a good transaction experience, especially when we're all passionate consumers here. Lets value and further the same conduct and enrich ourselves in the process

True, Pramod, especially in our transactions that are not face to face and there is a tremendous scope for mistaken assumptions, it is important to keep things simple. Even if one finds a better deal in the interim, it would be the done thing to pay the agreed-upon price. I suppose there are others who prefer a more dynamic negotiation model, on the assumption that "we are all adults, exactly what about this surprises you?" :) but that model leads to absolute chaos in a many-to-many marketplace that is based on passion, where experiences full of trust leads to lasting friendships in the non-virtual world ... And great deals too :)

Thanks,
Ramsub

Oh, the things we do as adults.

Well said, Ramsub!

Quote from: Hankosaurus on September 18, 2013, 10:12:57 PM
Fellow Members,

In the coming days you will notice that a number of posts in this thread have been removed. FROWNS is our "go-to" place to learn about deals gone bad and who did whatever.

In order to keep this thread as useful and concise as possible for the JJMPF Membership, comments which do not add pertinent information and facts about deals gone bad are subject to be removed.

Thank you for understanding. It's absolutely nothing personal, so please don't take it that way if one or more of your comments disappear while your Moderators set about to boil thinning soup down to a richer sauce.

Happy Day.

To reiterate: While posts that go into discussions might seem justified, the purpose behind this thread is to create an easy to skim through reference of deals gone bad so members can just reference the name and other details of the person. Discussions dilute the purpose behind the thread as it becomes impossible for members to find details.

Hence, please refrain from forming a discussion and take that to a new thread.

My thought is that we should have a set format so it's easily skimmable. If anyone has thoughts on a format that they'd like to see, let me know and I'll take it up for discussion (just make it sane and not 20 fields as no one will follow that). Something along the lines of:

Username:
Member Name:
Known Contact Details:
Location:
Bank Name & Branch if Known (Please don't post account numbers):
Deal Details (what equipment along with details, serials etc):
Why it resulted in a frown:

Fellow Members,

Here is a issue where a deal is done, money transferred and person who is supposed to send D800  and lens is missing,


Would like to bring it to your kind notice about my recent horrific experience&substantial financial loss on one WTS deal which has left me devastated both financially & psychologically.

Synopsis of the entire deal:

Jjmpf Member Name: Suresh Shivaraman.
Jjmpf Member handle: rrkumar.
Item put up for Sale: Nikon D800Body& Box with all accessories only.
Additional freebees along with the deal: Nikon 24mm f2.8D lens & Remote Cord MC-36a.
Sale Amount: Rs. 1.10 Lakhs.
Date of the WTS Thread: 24 Dec 2013.
Date of discussions (plus verification of seller with another member) with seller: 25 Dec 2013.
NEFT fund transfer: 26 Dec 2013 for 1.10 Lakhs (made thru 3 transfers of Rs. 1K, 99K & 10K respectively).
Issue: Item not received till date & the seller is nor reachable through the phone & by PMs & email.

Narration:

As I was owning a Nikon D7000 I had a dream of moving to FX. Hence, was on the look out for buying a Nikon FX body in good condition. Saw WTS post  from handle " rrkumar " with the caption "quik sell tamilnadu buyers only  " and item for sale was "d800+nikon 24mm f/2.8+remote cord mc-36a". for 1.10 Lacs on 24 Dec 2013. I sent my cell no to him and he called me. Based on the telephonic discussions and the seller agreed to part with the camera & the additional items along with the shipping cost for 1.10 Lacs.

To be more sure, I even checked his history and found that he has earlier sold Olympus EPL1 to jjmpf member Jannu aka MR. JanardhanBarthwal. Had a word with Jannu& he gave a good account of the seller rrkumar. FurtherJannu's post in the Grins section of the buy & sell which is give below made me to decide in favour of this deal & went ahead with this deal (JJMPF member 'Hot Shoe' i.e., Mr. Vinod was with me when I spoke to the seller).


I confirm that Jannu's and Vinod 's were only suggestions/opinions based on their experience and the decision to go ahead with this deal was purely mine & I take complete onus of that decision.
That evening I requested bank details from the seller and he has sent me a PM which is below
Note: This is the same account Mr. Jannu transferred the amount for Olympus EPL1 purchase.

Based on this PM I initially transferred Rs.1000 and got a confirmation from the seller that he had received the amt and then transferred balance  amt of 1.09Lacsand the proof of the same is below:


After receiving the entire amount of Rs 1.10 Lakhs the seller acknowledged the receipt of the amount & confirmed me that he will be dispatching thru FedEx thru Air on 26thDec 13. By that same day evening he told that packing of the d800 and lens had become a big package since he has put lot of packing and he told that the FEDEX people were asking 11 K for Shipping. Hence he confirmed that he will dispatch the camera through someone who was travelling to Bangalore that evening. The hand courier was to reach Bangalore & deliver the package to me at my office on 28 Dec 2013 morning around 930 am.

I was expecting my parcel on 28th morning and it didnt arrive. I called all the phone numbers that he had given and found that both the nos (of RR kumar and the person who is supposed to carry the parcel to me) were getting diverted to a Bengali guys' cell no. which is switched off now. I have sent a immediate pm regarding the non-receipt of the parcel but no reply from him till date.

Thru this i ask members who know anything abt this person to come out so that i will help police in their investigation.

find attached a doc file with all attachments for ur reference.

Kiran

Can ANY replies/expressions of sympathy/help etc be posted on new threads ... you can imagine how difficult it is for anyone to use the frowns board if there is one frown report followed by 2 pages of comments and then another frown ...

It's best that the frown section just talk about the incident and provide as much of info on the person involved as possible. That will allow people to browse through more easily.

For Kiran's post: I've created a new thread here: http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,33385.0.html (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,33385.0.html)

Posting my first feedback in jjmpf, and really hoped this didn't have to be in the frowns section... but my last transaction turned really unfortunate for me.

I bought the 300 2.8 VR from Dilshad Ibrahim from Nagpur. (user: dilshadnawaz) http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=31905.0
Since this was an outstation deal we couldn't check the lens personally before buying, and since it wasn't possible for him to to take it to my contact in Nagpur for checking, we decided to go forward with the deal based on his posted and mailed images, testimonials from a common fb acquaintance regarding no known problems with the lens, and Dilshad's personal assurance that the lens was functionally perfect with no problems. Accordingly we transferred the amount (2.45L) on 18/1/2014 and received the lens via DTDC on 24/1/2014. The lens was packed in the nikon lens case with only a gunny bag and no padding wrapped around it. There were also more cosmetic blemishes not initially visible in his posted pictures on the lens.

However, my worries started at that point, since I couldn't hear the click of VR engaging and disengaging I expected from my other VR lenses on half shutter pressing. I also couldn't see the familiar viewfinder image stabilization. A chat with Dilshad however further added to my confusion, as he stated he had never heard the well-known VR click with this lens in the past!
Confused and really worried, I took it to our repair shop, who finally confirmed the the VR wasn't working.  This was corroborated by the Nikon authorized repair center in Kolkata, Capital Electronics informally, but they wouldn't repair out of warranty lenses.

The repair needed total replacement of the VR unit, and costed 18000.  I can clearly hear VR click on now, which the seller claimed not to have heard in 2.5 years of use.

Quote from: eragon on February 09, 2014, 09:13:36 PM
Posting my first feedback in jjmpf, and really hoped this didn't have to be in the frowns section... but my last transaction turned really unfortunate for me.

I bought the 300 2.8 VR from Dilshad Ibrahim from Nagpur. (user: dilshadnawaz) http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=31905.0
Since this was an outstation deal we couldn't check the lens personally before buying, and since it wasn't possible for him to to take it to my contact in Nagpur for checking, we decided to go forward with the deal based on his posted and mailed images, testimonials from a common fb acquaintance regarding no known problems with the lens, and Dilshad's personal assurance that the lens was functionally perfect with no problems. Accordingly we transferred the amount (2.45L) on 18/1/2014 and received the lens via DTDC on 24/1/2014. The lens was packed in the nikon lens case with only a gunny bag and no padding wrapped around it. There were also more cosmetic blemishes not initially visible in his posted pictures on the lens.

However, my worries started at that point, since I couldn't hear the click of VR engaging and disengaging I expected from my other VR lenses on half shutter pressing. I also couldn't see the familiar viewfinder image stabilization. A chat with Dilshad however further added to my confusion, as he stated he had never heard the well-known VR click with this lens in the past!
Confused and really worried, I took it to our repair shop, who finally confirmed the the VR wasn't working.  This was corroborated by the Nikon authorized repair center in Kolkata, Capital Electronics informally, but they wouldn't repair out of warranty lenses.

The repair needed total replacement of the VR unit, and costed 18000.  I can clearly hear VR click on now, which the seller claimed not to have heard in 2.5 years of use.

Hi
This deal started when I posted this item for sale on OLX. . Mr Subhrashish Niyogi ( User: Eragon)  saw my add on OLX and called me up for inquiring. Meanwhile I was already in talk with another person for the same lens and my deal was finalised for 2.5L. It was decided that he would come to Nagpur around 10th of Feb and pickup the lens. In this process Mr Subhrashish Niyogi called me up for the same and i quoted him 2.75L. But I told him that I am already in talks with some other person and he will be coming to nagpur to pick it up around mid of Feb. Mr Subhrashish Niyogi was reluctant on buying this lens so he told me to send some pics on his email and quote the final price. I did send him the pics as he wanted and quoted my final price as 2.5L. He said that he won't be able to come down to nagpur so  I should ship the lens to calcutta. I told him to ask someone in his knowhow from Nagpur to come and check the lens and he did talk to a person but he did not come down to check it.
He also asked some common acquaintances about the lens for which he  himself accepts that a common acquaintance had given the feedback that the lens had no problems.
Again a new round of negotiations started. He asked to further reduce the price as he was to take it immediately. I again reduced 5k as i was getting the cash immediately. So the deal was fixed for 2.45L and he was to transfer the  amount in my account and I was to ship the lens. As he transferred the cash in my axis bank account I was in Mumbai so I shipped his lens from Mumbai as i had promised him to ship immediately.
Now about the lens... it was in 100% working condition and before shipping it to him I had been to bandavgarh with the same lens and have some amazing photos with it. I own a 200-400 f4 vr ,300mm 2.8vr, 600mm vr2,400mm 2.8 vr2, 70-200mm 2.8 vr2, 70-300vr2 but inspite of this I don't understand what click he talks about and I don't think it is possible that in all these lenses the vr is non-functional. When i shipped the lens it was 100% ok and the vr was working. I have some recent shots of Tiger where I have clicked tack sharp photos handheld at a shutter speed of 1/30 from a jypsy which is not possible without VR. (he admits that a common acquiatance had told him that  the lens was ok).
One cannot rule out the possibility of mishandling by the courier company in transit as it happens sometimes but that is not my responsibility. So I once again repeat that the lens had no issues when I shipped it to him.
After this I sold my 200-400  to a gentleman and requested him to come personally to check and collect it as after dealing with Mr Subhrashish Niyogi i was very disappointed and did not want to take any chance. That gentleman came down to Nagpur to check and collect the lens.
   
Forgot to mention one more thing that he did not deal with me on the basis of this post in the forum. He saw my add on OLX and called me, that is why he has never sent me any PM or replied to my post on the open forum. When I updated the status of my post as 'SOLD' he noticed it and hence this post from his side.
About his post I too have some doubts, as per this statement I cannot understand what does he want to say....""This was corroborated by the Nikon authorized repair center in Kolkata, Capital Electronics informally, but they wouldn't repair out of warranty lenses......""
Why did he get it checked informally. Why would Nikon not repair its own product if it is not in warranty. Maybe they will charge for it but I don't think that they won't repair it.
Further adding to it I called up Capital Electronics( PhNo: 03340013978) and talked to Mr Subroto Sadhukar and he confirmed that they do repair out of warranty lens but charge for it and he explained that the normal procedure is that they take the lens and keep it for a day or two for investigating the problem and against the receipt they issue a job card. Now my question is why hasn't he posted a copy of the Job card or at least quoted the Job card number of capital electronics in his post when he claims that he got it checked from nikon.
""....The repair needed total replacement of the VR unit, and costed 18000....""
He has not made it clear that where did he get it repaired. Was the motor replaced an original one.( He has added a snapshot of my post similarly he should have posted a copy of the bill amounting 18000/- ,as anybody who claims to pay 18000 for repairs must have obtained a bill for the same . )
And second point ....."" testimonials from a common fb acquaintance regarding no known problems with the lens......""
The above quote clearly indicates that a third person known to both had already given him feedback that the lens was ok.
This is my side of story and please point out If I am wrong anywhere in this deal.
If anyone has any further queries pls feel free to clarify.

my D800 purchase went horribly wrong..camera is in gurgaon service centre now for fixing a spot in LCD..and the 24-120 lens for which i paid 50k has fungus and dust..the cam condition was described as 10/10 and lens 9.5/10, in excellent condition..all this by a renowned wedding photographer based out of N.Delhi..maintains his own website www.rajesharya.com...his dialogue when i complained "Maine apko lens bech dia hai, test karne nahi dia"..

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,34773.msg328928.html#msg328928

I have delivered you lens on 19th May and you called me on 29th for this issue and I simply told you I was not aware of this issue in lens as I lens in kept in bag since last 6months and I am not using it and request you to send me lens back and I will refund your full amount once I received the lens. But till date I haven't received the lens back. I have all proofs with me for this conversation. You change your mind every second. The last message you sent me that Lens is lying with my friend talk to him. Why should I talk to him its totally your responsibility to deliver lens to me. And just because of your this attitude I have lost 2 potential customers for my lens, one is Sharsh from JJM group only.

BTW It was already mentioned in my post that "I Would prefer someone who can check the lens personally and take it." So how can you say that I want a out of city buyer so that I can dispose off my items. And I am still saying my camera condition in 10/10. How can a single pixel dot which you can only see when LED is pitch black affect you images. And it is there since very first day I have bought this camera.

Mr. Bivesh you did what you want (defaming me by posting here), but I am still open to refund you. But clear your mind first that what is your target defaming me or getting a refund.

I dont have any intention of defaming or blaming someone without any reason. You handed over the equipment to my parents on 19th who were in Delhi at that time. I received the same on 27th May and immediately informed you as well as sent these pics. I couriered the lens on 28th as per your suggestion..I have sold three of my lenses in JJMPF without any complaints or issues and I am sure will continue to use this forum in future also. I never changed my mind, I simply asked you for a refund the day I received the lens and provided my bank details same day. Now the various messages from your side were:

1. "There cannot be any fungus, there might be dust in the lens but no fungus. Delhi weather me fungus ho hi nahi sakta"
2. Even without seeing the pics which I had sent you, you accept " There might be one or two spots. Dhoop me rakh dijiye do teen din. thik ho jaega"
3."Refund is not possible as I have already invested in other gear however I am ready to pay the servicing charges quoted by Nikon"

After this ,I remind him of his post in JJ Mehta where he described the lens condition as 9.5/10. He agrees for a refund and deletes his original post soon after.

4.After few days suddenly he calls up and says "I will refund you 32,000 as the lens price has dropped from last week"
5.Again after some time "Lens bhijwa dijiye, but I cant promise you anything right now"

When I told him I will upload pics in JJMPF, this is what he said " Will pay in three installments, if it suits you then only msg me"
after that "go ahead, will see what JJ Mehta can do. I don't do business in JJMEHTA"

All this for the lens which he had repeatedly assured over phone that it was in excellent condition and sparingly used.

I couriered the lens the day after I got it to my friend in Delhi who's office is 15 mins drive from Mr.Arya's shop. He had initially told me not to send the lens directly to him. After that I had given him one week time to refund my money and take back the lens, but he did not. Any sane person will know with what intentions he has sold his equipment. and now he is asking for the lens without any time frame/commitment for a refund. If your intention was to make a refund you would have done the day you had seen the pics which I had sent instead of coming up with different offers and payment terms.

Anyways I have learnt my lesson well. Will never buy used gear without inspecting. I trusted your words and that was my biggest mistake..

I have also sold my 5D and other stuff on JJM only.

1. Yes because this is first time I have fungus in my lenses.
2. I have seen images on my mobile as I told you over phone.
3. Yes I have told you this but as soon as you denied, I immediately agreed on refund you know Mr. Bivesh.
4. Yes I have deleted post because I am still getting enquiries for D800. Not because of this.
5. Read my msg which in your mobiles inbox it is clearly saying that I was planning to pay in one shot. But you are so impatient, you want money without sending back the lens.

And Yes I have told you that I am not doing business on JJM as because you threatened me 3-4 times " Transfer money in 7 days other wise I will defame you on JJM" " You have 3 days left" etc etc.

Again its not my duty to collect lens. I have tried my level best to resolve this issue but surely you teach me lesson, will never ever sell thing online.

After going through this thread, I m quite nervous about striking a deal without inspecting the gear. The person on the other end seems nice and honest and asked me to personally come and inspect the camera before proceeding. He had also sent me photos of the camera which seems OK but I don't want to take any chance after being already cheated earlier (not at JJMPF).

My problem is that I m based out in Mumbai and the seller is from Delhi so it won't be possible for me to visit Delhi to inspect the camera personally, neither do I know any of my friend who lives in Delhi and has experience with photographic gears.

I really want to proceed and not regret at the same time. Can any reputed forum member help me proceed with the deal?

Quote from: PYROCASTIC on August 30, 2014, 01:29:47 AMI really want to proceed and not regret at the same time. Can any reputed forum member help me proceed with the deal?

You should start a new thread in the appropriate forum requesting New Delhi based members for their help. Someone may offer to inspect the camera for you, without any obligations of course.

Folks let me start with saying, the experience here at JJMP is nothing but awesome until now. I have several transaction with many members exceeding 10+ L over many years. I am sorry to report this one bad experience I had with Arkaraj. I am writing to save some of the frustration for other members that I faced for any future deals with this particular individual.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,36865.msg342483.html#msg342483

I responded to WTB post above, he contacted me and negotiated to send the money for pick up in Bangalore. On the day I left I made several call to confirm that he is sure to pick up. I have TXT messages from him stating that payment will be sent in 1 hour and picked up tomorrow. I was leaving to airport and told him that it is fine and left the tripod with my friend back home. From 1 hour, to days to weeks, now it is 2 months this fellow now do not respond nor answer my calls now. After a month he sent me one email stating that he was not well, I told him not an issue please take care and arrange to pick up soon. I also offered for him to pay an advance so that I can hold until you can arrange to pick this. 

This is not picked up and I cannot use it as I left it back in India. I want to caution folks to deal with this individual.   

     

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 03:06:21 AM
Folks let me start with saying, the experience here at JJMP is nothing but awesome until now. I have several transaction with many members exceeding 10+ L over many years. I am sorry to report this one bad experience I had with Arkaraj. I am writing to save some of the frustration for other members that I faced for any future deals with this particular individual.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,36865.msg342483.html#msg342483

I responded to WTB post above, he contacted me and negotiated to send the money for pick up in Bangalore. On the day I left I made several call to confirm that he is sure to pick up. I have TXT messages from him stating that payment will be sent in 1 hour and picked up tomorrow. I was leaving to airport and told him that it is fine and left the tripod with my friend back home. From 1 hour, to days to weeks, now it is 2 months this fellow now do not respond nor answer my calls now. After a month he sent me one email stating that he was not well, I told him not an issue please take care and arrange to pick up soon. I also offered for him to pay an advance so that I can hold until you can arrange to pick this. 

This is not picked up and I cannot use it as I left it back in India. I want to caution folks to deal with this individual.   
 

Dear Rajeev,
Sorry that i am not able to take any call of late. I dont know what part of my text message you didnot understand that i had a surgery and shall callback once i am able to. I hadbeen working out with a person in bangalore for arranging a local pick-up, but owing to the accident, couldn't took it further. Logged in JJMPF after a few days today and saw all your measures for emphasizing me as hypocrite (saw your multiple comments on my Sale thread as well). It was very unfortunate how you have reacted in last few days and the way you have described my character. On the credibility part - i may not have sold 10L worth of equipments but whatever i have brought or sold here didn't ended up like this one. People who have bought from me is welcome to comment. Anyways, following your nice gesture, I have closed my Sale thread. Shall not be posting anythng further till the matter is settled. Can still take the Tripod - need time to arrange the pick-up since people doesnot follow your or mine schedule. If this is okay with you....kinldy wait and I shall get back. I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered.
Regards.

Quote from: arkaraj on October 05, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 03:06:21 AM
Folks let me start with saying, the experience here at JJMP is nothing but awesome until now. I have several transaction with many members exceeding 10+ L over many years. I am sorry to report this one bad experience I had with Arkaraj. I am writing to save some of the frustration for other members that I faced for any future deals with this particular individual.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,36865.msg342483.html#msg342483

I responded to WTB post above, he contacted me and negotiated to send the money for pick up in Bangalore. On the day I left I made several call to confirm that he is sure to pick up. I have TXT messages from him stating that payment will be sent in 1 hour and picked up tomorrow. I was leaving to airport and told him that it is fine and left the tripod with my friend back home. From 1 hour, to days to weeks, now it is 2 months this fellow now do not respond nor answer my calls now. After a month he sent me one email stating that he was not well, I told him not an issue please take care and arrange to pick up soon. I also offered for him to pay an advance so that I can hold until you can arrange to pick this. 

This is not picked up and I cannot use it as I left it back in India. I want to caution folks to deal with this individual.   
 

Dear Rajeev,
Sorry that i am not able to take any call of late. I dont know what part of my text message you didnot understand that i had a surgery and shall callback once i am able to. I hadbeen working out with a person in bangalore for arranging a local pick-up, but owing to the accident, couldn't took it further. Logged in JJMPF after a few days today and saw all your measures for emphasizing me as hypocrite (saw your multiple comments on my Sale thread as well). It was very unfortunate how you have reacted in last few days and the way you have described my character. On the credibility part - i may not have sold 10L worth of equipments but whatever i have brought or sold here didn't ended up like this one. People who have bought from me is welcome to comment. Anyways, following your nice gesture, I have closed my Sale thread. Shall not be posting anythng further till the matter is settled. Can still take the Tripod - need time to arrange the pick-up since people doesnot follow your or mine schedule. If this is okay with you....kinldy wait and I shall get back. I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered.
Regards.

Glad to see your response and surprised to see you post a paragraph and did not find time to respond a line or answer my calls over two months. As I told you to send an advance so that I can be assured that you will pick is still an option. I do not have arrange for shipping this back to me and I can purchase a new one that I need ASAP.

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: arkaraj on October 05, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 03:06:21 AM
Folks let me start with saying, the experience here at JJMP is nothing but awesome until now. I have several transaction with many members exceeding 10+ L over many years. I am sorry to report this one bad experience I had with Arkaraj. I am writing to save some of the frustration for other members that I faced for any future deals with this particular individual.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,36865.msg342483.html#msg342483

I responded to WTB post above, he contacted me and negotiated to send the money for pick up in Bangalore. On the day I left I made several call to confirm that he is sure to pick up. I have TXT messages from him stating that payment will be sent in 1 hour and picked up tomorrow. I was leaving to airport and told him that it is fine and left the tripod with my friend back home. From 1 hour, to days to weeks, now it is 2 months this fellow now do not respond nor answer my calls now. After a month he sent me one email stating that he was not well, I told him not an issue please take care and arrange to pick up soon. I also offered for him to pay an advance so that I can hold until you can arrange to pick this. 

This is not picked up and I cannot use it as I left it back in India. I want to caution folks to deal with this individual.   
 

Dear Rajeev,
Sorry that i am not able to take any call of late. I dont know what part of my text message you didnot understand that i had a surgery and shall callback once i am able to. I hadbeen working out with a person in bangalore for arranging a local pick-up, but owing to the accident, couldn't took it further. Logged in JJMPF after a few days today and saw all your measures for emphasizing me as hypocrite (saw your multiple comments on my Sale thread as well). It was very unfortunate how you have reacted in last few days and the way you have described my character. On the credibility part - i may not have sold 10L worth of equipments but whatever i have brought or sold here didn't ended up like this one. People who have bought from me is welcome to comment. Anyways, following your nice gesture, I have closed my Sale thread. Shall not be posting anythng further till the matter is settled. Can still take the Tripod - need time to arrange the pick-up since people doesnot follow your or mine schedule. If this is okay with you....kinldy wait and I shall get back. I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered.
Regards.

Glad to see your response and surprised to see you post a paragraph and did not find time to respond a line or answer my calls over two months. As I told you to send an advance so that I can be assured that you will pick is still an option. I do not have arrange for shipping this back to me and I can purchase a new one that I need ASAP.

Folks, I have again reached out to Arkaraj to settle this amicably. I have yet to hear response from him. I will keep you posted. Thanks!

Sorry to say but the fact that Arkaraj logged in to start a WTS thread rather than respond to Rajeev (canon4life), doesn't augur well and reeks of indifference.

His parting note, "I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered" doesn't inspire confidence to the seller either.

Apparently, all Arkaraj has been requested to do is to pay up a token advance, pay the rest & pick-up the item at his own convenience. Now, is that a hard thing to do & thereby honour a commitment ? Guys, your guess is as good as mine  >:(. I sincerely hope the matter is sorted out amicably sooner rather than later.

I don't know Arkaraj.

Here's what I see (and anyone can see) from his posts -

His wts thread was started on August 21, 2014, 09:52:33 PM

Subsequent logins by him on that thread -

« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2014, 09:28:52 PM »
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2014, 02:54:18 PM »
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2014, 11:56:25 PM »
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2014, 09:33:12 PM »

Arkaraj's next login was when he replied in the frowns thread.

« on: October 05, 2014, 05:00:26 PM »

So from September 05 to October 05, he seemed to be offline.

He also said a couple of things that are relevant -

"i had a surgery and shall callback once i am able to. I had been working out with a person in bangalore for arranging a local pick-up, but owing to the accident, couldn't took it further."

He seems to have had an accident bad enough for him to need surgery. It's also not the case that he's been merrily buying and selling stuff on JJM over this 1 month period - he's been offline for a month. Nothing unreasonable about "I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered" too.

It's also not the case that he's taken possession of the item for which he has not paid.

We all plan things but sometimes life intervenes and things change drastically.

Unless he has had a previous history of bad behaviour on the forum, I'd cut him some slack.

Still looking for someone who can mediate this transaction (Carry it from bangalore to kolkata).
I am not comfortable with the concept of token advance. Mr. Rajeev wrote an email conveying that all his bad words in my sale thread shall be deleted if i pay him the advance which is just hilarious - this is how things are resolved amicably?
It is not obligatory on my part to follow his terms. I have given a commitment to buy it and at a Price and would honor it but at conditions acceptable to me. Nevertheless, my purpose of getting here is --- any forum member travelling from Bangalore to Kolkata and whom Mr. Rajeev can trust because of his immense credibility of selling 10Lacs+ equipment in the forum - i would request him to PM if he is willing to help by executing this cash transaction.
Thanks.

My full sympathies to the you on the surgery and I hope you're recovering well. I was of the exact same mind as what Bharat had said and had passed this off mentally as "sometimes events conspire against things happening and this is life". I was willing to cut you some slack as Bharat called for.

But this statement: That's just not right.

Quote from: arkaraj on October 10, 2014, 11:36:03 AM
I have given a commitment to buy it and at a Price and would honor it but at conditions acceptable to me.

From what I read and isn't in contention, you'd committed to buy it from a seller. Now in my books, when you commit to such a thing, you agree to his terms. It just isn't right to alter terms once the agreement is made. I sincerely hope I've misunderstood your statement above, but it does appear that you're now saying that "Yes, I did agree to buy it from you, but I didn't give you an exact date and time". Thankfully this is a tripod which won't lose value as rapidly as a camera body.

If there's an issue in getting it picked up - then payup fully and sort out the pickup issue from your side, it certainly isn't the sellers responsibility to arrange for pickup as you were obviously well aware that he wasn't a short distance away at the time of agreeing to buy it. I think I've had such a deal where the buyer of a bag from me had me keep the bag for him for almost 4 months (maybe longer) as he was trying to find someone to pick it up. He'd paid up fully and even though I offered to refund him fully and sell again locally after 3-4 months, he said no and so I kept the bag safely for him till it was picked up.

I agree with Vikram.

Also, I see absolutely nothing unjustified in the seller asking you for a token advance. In fact, once you committed to buy, he was fully justified in expecting the full payment and I am surprised he's only asked for a token advance.

You have bought the tripod.
The seller can't use it or sell it anymore.
He has a very reasonable expectation for the funds generated by the sale.
He is simply doing you a favor by holding it for you (something one may well be uncomfortable in doing since it is simply an unasked for and unwanted responsibility).

Suggest you think it over and do the right thing.

"when you commit to such a thing, you agree to his terms. It just isn't right to alter terms once the agreement is made. I sincerely hope I've misunderstood your statement above, but it does appear that you're now saying that "Yes, I did agree to buy it from you, but I didn't give you an exact date and time".

You've nailed it Vikram. Full agree with Bharat too !

Hope sanity prevails.

Quote from: canon4life on October 06, 2014, 07:14:12 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: arkaraj on October 05, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 03:06:21 AM
Folks let me start with saying, the experience here at JJMP is nothing but awesome until now. I have several transaction with many members exceeding 10+ L over many years. I am sorry to report this one bad experience I had with Arkaraj. I am writing to save some of the frustration for other members that I faced for any future deals with this particular individual.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,36865.msg342483.html#msg342483

I responded to WTB post above, he contacted me and negotiated to send the money for pick up in Bangalore. On the day I left I made several call to confirm that he is sure to pick up. I have TXT messages from him stating that payment will be sent in 1 hour and picked up tomorrow. I was leaving to airport and told him that it is fine and left the tripod with my friend back home. From 1 hour, to days to weeks, now it is 2 months this fellow now do not respond nor answer my calls now. After a month he sent me one email stating that he was not well, I told him not an issue please take care and arrange to pick up soon. I also offered for him to pay an advance so that I can hold until you can arrange to pick this. 

This is not picked up and I cannot use it as I left it back in India. I want to caution folks to deal with this individual.   
 

Dear Rajeev,
Sorry that i am not able to take any call of late. I dont know what part of my text message you didnot understand that i had a surgery and shall callback once i am able to. I hadbeen working out with a person in bangalore for arranging a local pick-up, but owing to the accident, couldn't took it further. Logged in JJMPF after a few days today and saw all your measures for emphasizing me as hypocrite (saw your multiple comments on my Sale thread as well). It was very unfortunate how you have reacted in last few days and the way you have described my character. On the credibility part - i may not have sold 10L worth of equipments but whatever i have brought or sold here didn't ended up like this one. People who have bought from me is welcome to comment. Anyways, following your nice gesture, I have closed my Sale thread. Shall not be posting anythng further till the matter is settled. Can still take the Tripod - need time to arrange the pick-up since people doesnot follow your or mine schedule. If this is okay with you....kinldy wait and I shall get back. I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered.
Regards.

Glad to see your response and surprised to see you post a paragraph and did not find time to respond a line or answer my calls over two months. As I told you to send an advance so that I can be assured that you will pick is still an option. I do not have arrange for shipping this back to me and I can purchase a new one that I need ASAP.

Folks, I have again reached out to Arkaraj to settle this amicably. I have yet to hear response from him. I will keep you posted. Thanks!

Folks I appreciate you all chiming in and and sharing your perspective, hopefully Arkaraj can come to terms considering all your view points, looks like he is in some sort of deadlock with me to communicate, I have yet to hear from him. Hope to get over this ordeal soon.

Thank You all.     

Rule 29c. Concluded Agreements Binding
Once buyer and seller agree to a price and terms of delivery, a contract between them exists. If either party is deemed by the Moderators to have violated that agreement without the consent of the other, then the offending Member is subject to have his JJMPF account locked. Exception: If the goods are found to be pirated, or are reported to be stolen, then a contract did not exist. See Rules 29a and 29b.

Quote from: canon4life on October 12, 2014, 09:55:50 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 06, 2014, 07:14:12 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 06:07:25 PM

Quote from: arkaraj on October 05, 2014, 05:00:26 PM

Quote from: canon4life on October 05, 2014, 03:06:21 AM
Folks let me start with saying, the experience here at JJMP is nothing but awesome until now. I have several transaction with many members exceeding 10+ L over many years. I am sorry to report this one bad experience I had with Arkaraj. I am writing to save some of the frustration for other members that I faced for any future deals with this particular individual.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,36865.msg342483.html#msg342483

I responded to WTB post above, he contacted me and negotiated to send the money for pick up in Bangalore. On the day I left I made several call to confirm that he is sure to pick up. I have TXT messages from him stating that payment will be sent in 1 hour and picked up tomorrow. I was leaving to airport and told him that it is fine and left the tripod with my friend back home. From 1 hour, to days to weeks, now it is 2 months this fellow now do not respond nor answer my calls now. After a month he sent me one email stating that he was not well, I told him not an issue please take care and arrange to pick up soon. I also offered for him to pay an advance so that I can hold until you can arrange to pick this. 

This is not picked up and I cannot use it as I left it back in India. I want to caution folks to deal with this individual.   
 

Dear Rajeev,
Sorry that i am not able to take any call of late. I dont know what part of my text message you didnot understand that i had a surgery and shall callback once i am able to. I hadbeen working out with a person in bangalore for arranging a local pick-up, but owing to the accident, couldn't took it further. Logged in JJMPF after a few days today and saw all your measures for emphasizing me as hypocrite (saw your multiple comments on my Sale thread as well). It was very unfortunate how you have reacted in last few days and the way you have described my character. On the credibility part - i may not have sold 10L worth of equipments but whatever i have brought or sold here didn't ended up like this one. People who have bought from me is welcome to comment. Anyways, following your nice gesture, I have closed my Sale thread. Shall not be posting anythng further till the matter is settled. Can still take the Tripod - need time to arrange the pick-up since people doesnot follow your or mine schedule. If this is okay with you....kinldy wait and I shall get back. I shall be offline again for few days till i am fully recovered.
Regards.

Glad to see your response and surprised to see you post a paragraph and did not find time to respond a line or answer my calls over two months. As I told you to send an advance so that I can be assured that you will pick is still an option. I do not have arrange for shipping this back to me and I can purchase a new one that I need ASAP.

Folks, I have again reached out to Arkaraj to settle this amicably. I have yet to hear response from him. I will keep you posted. Thanks!

Folks I appreciate you all chiming in and and sharing your perspective, hopefully Arkaraj can come to terms considering all your view points, looks like he is in some sort of deadlock with me to communicate, I have yet to hear from him. Hope to get over this ordeal soon.

Thank You all.   

Thank you all for sharing your views, Arkaraj had arranged for picking up 2 weeks back. I appreciate all your help. Thanks!!

Though I was not very much inclined to write this feedback, as I am not the type to say bad or negative things about somebody, but I took time, consulted with few other members and finally I decided to write about it and wanted the members to know about it.
One of the members of this forum, Aravindan posted in WTS to sell his Nikon 300 mm f/4D IF lens in the month of July. I was interested and contacted him to buy this lens. He was a nice talker and I was impressed. We finalized the deal for Rs. 51000/- plus shipping charges at actuals. He told me that everything was in order and available, and lens in is great shape. I trusted him and was happy to deal with him. He sent me few photos clicked through this lens though not impressive ones. I made repeated request to him that he should pack the lens carefully and nicely as this is a heavy lens. I transferred the entire amount to his account on 20 July 2015. He shipped the lens on the same day and I received it on 22 July 2015. I transferred the courier charges on 22 July 2015. Now here is my experience after I received it:

1.   Original Nikon box was there, but box was in bad shape – it was torn, soft and held together by putting brown sticking tape from inside. No original cardboard packing was there. Lens was put in the original lens pouch wrapped with some 'pillow wraps', majority of those 'pillows' were deflated. Additionally some newspaper were loosely stuffed. Unfortunately, neither I took any photo nor any video while unpacking the parcel.   
2.   No paper accompanied the parcel, neither the bill, nor the lens manual. Upon calling him, he told that papers got lost during shifting of house. Instead he sent me a pdf version of the manual which is available from Nikon website.
3.   Strap of the lens pouch was missing. He never informed me before that the strap was not available with him. Upon asking he initially told me he will search and send that to me. Also he tried to lecture that it is not advisable to carry that heavy lens on your shoulder. Upon insisting he responded that it might be at his native place, which he is planning to visit in August 2015 and by end of August he will send it. Though I can't understand how a person leaves the strap of the lens pouch at his native place, when the lens and its pouch are with him, I believed him again. Till date (15 September 2015), I have not received the strap.
4.   Since I received the lens in the middle of the week, I did not get the opportunity to test it. In the weekend when I tested it, to my horror, I found photos are totally blurry and decolored and it hunts vigorously with my D7100 body. In manual focus mode also the result was the same. I suspected that there must be some serious problem with the lens and informed him immediately about it. I waited for another weekend and tried clicking some more photos when the light condition was better. Still it was producing horrible photos (those were not photos at all). Then I decided to go to the Nikon Service Centre in Mumbai. On 04 August 2015, I gave the lens to NSC for repairing. When I got the estimate after 4-5 days I informed him about the repairing cost. On 27 August 2015 I got the lens back after paying Rs. 11238/-. The break up is
a.   Parts Charges Rs. 5379/- plus Rs. 672 (VAT) = Rs. 6051/-
b.   Labour Charges Rs. 4550/- plus 637 (Service Tax) = Rs. 5187/-
c.   Total = 11238/-

I requested him several times to pay me back the repair charges as I got the lens in damaged condition, and in good faith and as a goodwill gesture he should agree for that. But Aravindan is staunchly refusing to pay, to acknowledge the responsibility of a damaged lens, perhaps due his shabby packing and careless attitude. I gave him time so that he can change his mind. I even got some other senior and experienced photographer friends talk to him but he did not budge. I also told him that by spending Rs. 11238/- he will not become poor, neither will I. But it is a matter of trust and faith when we are dealing between two different cities, have never seen each other but bound by a common passion.

This episode left a bitter taste in my mouth. I felt I was cheated by a nice talking silly man. I urge all members to think ten times before dealing with Aravindan.   

I am glad you took the decision to write. This would help others not to deal with him .

I dont think this post would matter to him , he probably would change his nickname and assume a new identity. You are indeed a gentleman to let it go at just polite requests .

Thanks
Faraz

Couple of things :

After the repair is the lens in perfect condition.
Did nikon offer a warranty on the repair.
What parts were changed by nikon ?



From the post it looks like the item was damaged during transit.  As he has posted images taken with the lens as well as you had pictures sent to you before they were shipped.


There are couple of things that both can do.

1. Split the cost of the repair.
2.  Get the bill and check if item under warranty. ( talk to the shop where lens was procured from and ask for a copy of bill)

If no bill can be provided then the seller to bear 2/3 cost of repair.



Most importantly talk to each other and figure out middle ground.


Ps : I just seen that the lens was  marked as sold on 15th july yet there was an edit to the post on sept 06. What was editied can the mods share.

« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 06:49:50 AM by Aravindan »

Hi Hillol,

A couple of things where I will talk about both sides (and neither are in any form an endorsement of either your views or the sellers actions - I'm just playing devil's advocate here):

First, let me interpret this from a viewpoint that is NOT in agreement with you: You assumed risk when you accepted shipping. If the damage was prior to shipping, then the seller has willfully deceived you. If the damage took place in transit, then it was an accepted risk. IT appears as if the damage was in transit here. You should have pushed for better packing and insisted on having some say on how it was packed and sent given that you were accepting the risk of shipping. To leave it up to the person sending the package who is completely absolved of risk is negligence on your part. Hillol sirji, you were also perhaps a bit negligent in not checking on the box, papers, strap etc prior to buying - you could easily have checked if they were present before buying. That's what Skype or any other video chat are for.

Second, and this is from a viewpoint that supports you: We're NOT a shop or a business. We're a community of photographers who love photography. We're gentlemen and expect everyone else on this forum to behave as such. Step one, as a lover of photography, surely the seller should/would have taken as much care in packing the item as he would want others to take when sending him items? It seems he didn't and that is how he expects others to send him equipment. Better packing would have prevented this. Once the damage has done, it's gentlemanly to be self critical and assume some measure of responsibility and not leave a fellow member out to dry. This is not what I'd expect members to do.

To all members:
1. Please hesitate when it comes to buying from outside your city. That hesitation should cause you to ponder on the risks of lost packages, damaged packages.
2. If you're going to have something packed and the seller says your cost and risk, then please don't cheap out here - take insurance and choose a reputed courier.
3. If you're assuming the risk of shipping, then please insist on having a say on how things will be packed.
4. Lastly, your reputation is worth more money than you could possibly spend on any equipment ever. Protect it and ensure you are a gentleman (or woman) in the actions you take. As they say, character is what you are in the dark.

I'd say splitting of costs would be the ideal solution right now to sort things out. Otherwise, the only possible rule that has been broken is if the seller had posted that the item was being sold with papers etc and no bits missing (the strap) But I would really hope that it doesn't come down to the word of the law and can be sorted in the right spirit.

Hi

Just my small contribution.

When shipping lenses, it's best to ship by the original packaging, so that the lens doesn't shake at all within the box. People receive big and expensive lenses from abroad without any issue, only because of the excellent packaging.

BUT: Always remember to switch off the VR/IS system before shipping the lens to a long distance. Even minor vibration can damage the VR system. Even it's suggested that while travelling by car with the lenses, better to switch off the VR system.

Thanks
Nirmalya

@Hillol , what are the parts replaced by Nikon? Please elaborate the nature of damage suffered by the lens.

regards
Somnath

A few thoughts I'd like to share:

a) I always recommend that the buyer opt for insurance. Also, this insurance is against loss in transit, NOT damage to the item being shipped. FedEx India and DTDC do not ordinarily accept delicate items like cameras/lenses for shipment from retail customers. One has to sign a waiver absolving the carrier of responsibility in case of handling damage. Having sold a number of items here, just ONE person opted for insurance. Sad but true. Penny pinching can lead to pain later on.

b) I am not sure if Hillol's bad experience is handling damage or damage caused by improper packaging OR misrepresentation of the condition of the lens by the seller (giving the seller the benefit of a doubt here). The type of parts replaced can give a good indication of the cause.

Hillol, sorry to read about your experience. Please share what parts were replaced. Looks like the SC had to disassemble the lens completely so something was probably out of whack with the focus mechanism (hence the blurred photos).

c) As far as possible, always use the original box/carton. Take care to preserve these boxes in case you choose to sell at a later date. They are designed to protect the contents and are manufacturer approved methods of packing the product.

d) Although the shipment is at the buyer's risk (and cost), it is the sellers responsibility to pack the product in such a manner that it reduces the chance of damage during shipment. In Hillol's case I am rather surprised to read about the condition of the box.

Quote from: nirmalya on September 16, 2015, 08:46:42 AMWhen shipping lenses, it's best to ship by the original packaging, so that the lens doesn't shake at all within the box. People receive big and expensive lenses from abroad without any issue, only because of the excellent packaging.

BUT: Always remember to switch off the VR/IS system before shipping the lens to a long distance. Even minor vibration can damage the VR system. Even it's suggested that while travelling by car with the lenses, better to switch off the VR system.

Thanks
Nirmalya

Companies have tie ups with FedEx etc where they are held responsible for any handling damage or loss in transit. Unfortunately based on my experience we retail walk-in customers in India are not provided the same coverage so far as handling damage is concerned. That said I've not faced a problem so far with FedEx/DTDC/Blue Dart, the 3 companies I have used in the past. DTDC is the most cost effective.

Agreed about shipping in the original box as far as possible. Just a correction there, the AF-S and VR switches are electrical not mechanical. Switching them off will not "disengage" the mechanism but simply break the electrical contact in the circuit. So any shock to the package will affect the VR system regardless of the position of the switch.

Hi Admin,
I'm not able to read post from few people. For e.g  lbobo's item for sale "Fuji xt1 and 35mm 1.4"

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Quote from: framedrelay on October 02, 2017, 08:44:52 PM
Hi Admin,
I'm not able to read post from few people. For e.g  lbobo's item for sale "Fuji xt1 and 35mm 1.4"

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

That post has issue. Only that post. I too tried opening, but it becomes non-responsive

This is regarding my deal with Mr Parampreet Dhat regarding
Fuji XE1
Fujinon 18-55mm 2.8 and
Fujinon 35mm f1.4

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,50606.msg425947.html#msg425947

In the thread also he has mentioned regarding the adapter and now how this guy is manipulating facts!!

During the deal the price felt bit high to me. So i didn't commit. So seller suggested adding a Nikon to fuji x mount adapter. So i decided to go for the deal as now it seemed ok to me.
During later part of deal finalizing stage it was revealed that the battery is a wasabi brand aftermarket battery. I insisted on giving the original one and seller said he will send once he finds. I agreed.
He never said he won't send the adapter.


Dtdc plus service i insisted and said i will pay at actuals.
He informed 1050rs after sending.

I received the items. Was busy and checked on 3rd day of getting.

And I informed him that battery and adapter is missing.
Seller said he didn't want to delay the deal so sent me whatever was in hand.
So i assumed once he gives me the adapter and battery i will give his 1050rs. That was my fault. I should have told him give me adapter and then take your shipping charges.


(There was no communication regarding money or adapter from either side. I was busy in selling the xe1 and getting a xt1. I sold off the xe1 and bought a xt1 so was cameraless during that period and never used either lens )


When I checked after receiving, All was working fine. I kept it in my box.

Am not a professional. After few days of getting my new XT1 camera I removed the 18-55mm from box  for a function and to my utter surprise the lens didn't work showing lens error. I searched in net and saw that it's common with this lens. So accepted my fate and never bothered to blame the seller. Basically the 18-55 was never used by me.

Now after around 45 days the seller returns to ask for the 1050rs.
I casually informed him that the 18-55 conked off and am at a big loss with this deal.
He said it was working fine with him.
So i reluctantly sent him 1052.50rs.

I asked on WhatsApp did you receive the money?
He said yes and said thanks to me. Even i welcomed him and closed the discussion.

Now i knew this guy won't send me adapter or the original battery.
I cursed myself for dealing with such a cheap person who even after knowing that lens is not  working and i never blamed him. He persistently asked for the money. So I decided to delete his no and block him on whatsapp and to never deal with this guy again.
I never had a spat with him.


I wish he had asked me why 2.5rs extra??
That was my way of saying BRO KEEP THE CHANGE.

Now hardly 10 days after getting the money he conveniently got the adapter and put it on sale here.

After i objected on the thread he retorted saying

1. The Adapter was not part of the deal and it was a FREEBIE
WOW JUST WOW

2. He said i blocked him on whatsapp so he couldnt contact me to inform that he found the adapter nd would send it to me!!

I am sure he tried to contact me only after i replied on the thread and realized i might hve blocked him.

Wow there is no other way it seems in this age
No SMS?
No WHASTAPP FROM ANOTHER NUMBER?
No facebook as i had added him there too

I mean seriously you are SO GOOD Human being?

TAKE A BOW BRO.


NOW I WISH SOMEONE BUYS THE ADAPTER FOR 1500RS

AND I WISH HIM LUCK FOR THAT

FINALLY YOU NEED THE MONEY MORE BRO

AND YES KEEP THE CHANGE!!!

[attachment deleted by admin]

even after "ayaskant12" 's complain / frown feedback, no reply from the seller to clear his side & the seller is still allowed to be on the forum or post WTS post !!!

Quote from: aadishvaar on February 01, 2018, 09:52:38 AM
even after "ayaskant12" 's complain / frown feedback, no reply from the seller to clear his side & the seller is still allowed to be on the forum or post WTS post !!!

I remember reading the post below and just re-read it again. I still can't see where the OP has asked for a redressal.

It is surprising that the other member hasn't replied and it is surprising that the OP hasn't contacted the mods either.

He also said the lens was working when he received it (and in anycase it's up to a buyer to check items). So the issue is on the battery and the adapter. In whatever case, the mods would need to be provided with proof of agreements (written or screenshots between parties). Without which it becomes a he-said-he-said case. I think the OP realises that as he's said repeatedly that nothing was put in writing.

I had put all data in the thread itself

OP complained to a mod and he deleted all the discussion where the seller claimed that he couldn't contact me on Whatsapp!!
As if jjmehta forum messages section didn't exist!!
It was there itself accepted by the seller but nothing was done and not even an explanation was asked!!

Simply deleting the chats of a ongoing sale thread and asking to take it to PM's!


I contacted the said mod and he told I can only sympathize with you.

I have Whatsapp messages but what will be the result?

Let karma be the judge!!

At the end it all comes back....

Quote from: ayaskant12 on February 01, 2018, 11:42:44 AM
Let karma be the judge!!

At the end it all comes back....

If you're happy with Karma, then so be it.

If not, could you raise the issue clearly, as per the timeline, along with supporting statements (screenshots) and what you expect the OP to do via PM to all the mods please?

Hi.
With a heavy heart, I am writing this post in this section.

Recently, I had purchased a Nikon 28-105 from Mr. Subrata Pal, the link of the post is as follows.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,53104.msg435364.html#msg435364

I met him on 3rd August in Kolkata, and inspected the lens. After negotiations, we settled for 6000/- for the lens, and for another 300, he included me a Hoya UV filter. I had offered to pay him by electronic means, but since he had trashed his phone, I had to draw the cash, and since either of us were not having the change against a 500 rupee note, we mutually agreed that once his phone is restored, the balance amount of 300 would be paid electronically.

On inspecting the lens, it was capturing images perfectly but the shift from 28mm to 35mm was a bit sticky. I asked him about the place where he had gotten it serviced. He said that it was serviced by Nikon Service center. Since I had purchased a scanner from him about a year and a half ago, I believed him, and took the lens home.

After a few days, to be precise, on 7th august, the lens was not getting detected by either of out FX bodies (Nikon D750 and D810), and a Nikon F90x, I tried calling him, but his number was switched off. So, on 8th august, I took it to my repair person. (the copy of the bill is attached with the serial no.). Meanwhile, I tried to communicate with him. It was on Friday (10th august), when I could get in touch with him.

On contacting, I asked for the service advisory, that Nikon had issued to him, and that's when he started talking ambiguously. He said that he would have to look for it. On saturday (11th august), he called me,saying that he would be going near the Nikon Service Center, and he would get the lens repaired. I couldn't trust him with this, and I just asked him to share the service advisory, I would deal with the Nikon Customer service. I too had some work, thus I couldn't talk properly.

Today, when I called him, he simply said that he has misplaced the service bill, and on further pestering, he admitted that he got it done from someone, who 'works in the Nikon Service Center'. Then, he started badmouthing me, saying that either you pay me the rest 300 rs, (i never said that I wont pay) or I will complain the police, then he sent me a threat text, all off a sudden, demanding another 4k for the scanner which I had purchased from him about a year and a half ago for 6k. Then he said that he was not happy in dealing with me, and thus he want 'his' goods back, i.e. the lens, and the scanner, and he will refund me the entire money, in a very threatening tone. I am attaching the screenshot of the text message that he had sent me, along with the bill copy, which proves that I have given the lens for servicing. Let him go to the police, do whatever he want.

All these, because he couldn't prove that he got the lens repaired from Nikon Authorized service center (so that I can claim the 6 months warranty on the product). Though he has agreed to refund me the money, but i need the lens, even if it requires some service. In any case, I would pay him the rest 300 as soon as he shares the UPI code.

I would definitely ask others to be aware of this guy.

I definitely dont need the refund as I desperately need it. With a pinch of salt, I will use it.

Regards,Joy

P.S. : Somehow I was unable to attach the bill copy for the service, and the screenshot of the threat message, but if it is required, I can PM it to the concerned person.

the person above is a liar and I will take it to the local police station as the person is making up this drama to not pay 300/- that he is supposed to. the lens is absolutely fine and he is plain lying through his teeth.

I have asked him to return the lens in original condition and the Hoya HMC UV filter and the pouch which he damaged in front of me while buying the lens. he refuses to do so. he in fact refuses for me to see the lens. he refuses to show me the lens and refuses to pay the balance 300. I am unwilling to sell it to him as I have dealt with him before and I will be getting back all my equipment sold to him and I WILL take legal action for the same.

Rest assured, this is going to become a real issue and I will keep the forum updated as it goes after the FIR.

Nikon gives some warranty for any item that they have serviced.
What is the problem? Just take the lens with the service report to Nikon.

Quote from: subhabratapal on August 12, 2018, 05:07:52 PM
the person above is a liar and I will take it to the local police station as the person is making up this drama to not pay 300/- that he is supposed to. the lens is absolutely fine and he is plain lying through his teeth.

I have asked him to return the lens in original condition and the Hoya HMC UV filter and the pouch which he damaged in front of me while buying the lens. he refuses to do so. he in fact refuses for me to see the lens. he refuses to show me the lens and refuses to pay the balance 300. I am unwilling to sell it to him as I have dealt with him before and I will be getting back all my equipment sold to him and I WILL take legal action for the same.

Rest assured, this is going to become a real issue and I will keep the forum updated as it goes after the FIR.

I have wrote in the open forum that I would pay you that 300 INR as soon as you share your UPI code.

Dude, stop making a joke of yourself.

Now what do you want to say? I have got this bill printed? You can check it, it was issued from S. Samanta and sons, which is a shop that was established more than 50 years ago. His phone number is there on the bill, so, anyone can call and verify.

All of a sudden out of nowhere, you claimed another 4k for the Epson v600 that you had sold me about a year and a half ago for 6k, which I had paid when I had picked the scanner from you.

The pouch was very flimsy, and yes, the plastic piece at the end of the string came off as I tried to tie it, but again, it was a part of the deal, and I didn't blame you for that. Dude, why would I pay you for something that I had damaged which belongs to me?

I have provided enough proof that can be verified. You still can't prove that you got the lens serviced from Nikon. There is a desperate need for the same, and thus I don't want a refund, and I just let others in the forum know the kind of a person that you are.

And by threatening me, you made it easier for me to prove.

Sent from my Lenovo K8 Note using Tapatalk

Quote from: subhabratapal on August 12, 2018, 05:07:52 PM... I am unwilling to sell it to him as I have dealt with him before and I will be getting back all my equipment sold to him and I WILL take legal action for the same.  Rest assured, this is going to become a real issue and I will keep the forum updated as it goes after the FIR.

Just curious... Does Indian law allow one to "capture" something sold to someone else long ago?  I suspect that some excellent documentation will be in order when going to the police.  I wonder if it might not be easier to find that aforementioned service receipt from the Nikon Service Center.

I'm looking forward to learning something useful from the promised Forum Updates.

::)

Quote from: subhabratapal on August 12, 2018, 05:07:52 PMI am unwilling to sell it to him as I have dealt with him before and I will be getting back all my equipment sold to him and I WILL take legal action for the same.

Good. Lawyers are always in need of income and courts are always in need of a good laugh.

Quote from: Thad E G on August 14, 2018, 12:04:22 AM

Quote from: subhabratapal on August 12, 2018, 05:07:52 PMI am unwilling to sell it to him as I have dealt with him before and I will be getting back all my equipment sold to him and I WILL take legal action for the same.

Good. Lawyers are always in need of income and courts are always in need of a good laugh.

jog on!

Hi, I didn't know where to post so commenting here.

I am unable to post in the sell section. After I feed in all details and upload pics and got to POST, it says - You are not allowed to access this section.
Can anyone help on this issue?

Mod Note: see THIS LINK (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,53287.0.html) for help linking images.

I had purchased an Olympus OMD E-M1 from Mr. Tom Hardin (PocoLoco) in which during the series of communication he had mentioned that there is a chipping on the screen guard which he mentioned he had applied immediately after purchasing.
I was fine with it as the screen guard can be replaced or done away with and asked him to ship it. As part of the package he provided the camera with box and accessories, 2 after market batteries and a travel charger and leather case and strap. There was also a kit lens for the camera.
I was happy as this was my first M43rd system.
But when the camera arrived and I saw the chipping I found it was on the LCD and there was no screen guard.
When I took it up with Tom, he said he was "sure" there was a screen guard as he has checked it and I was unable to distinguish it from the screen.
No photographer can be that mistaken, so taking his word I actually spent half an hour trying to figure out the screen guard.
Finally when I was sure that there was none and went back to Tom, he said he would ask his wife if she had removed!
Having established the fact that the damage was on the LCD, when I asked for refund or some amount be credited in lieu of the "genuine mistake" on his behalf he denied bluntly. He said he had given me a great deal, which I would have accepted, had it not been for the chipping. It was totally a deal breaker and I would not have purchased it had he given me the correct information.
I tried to reason with him as he is a very senior person age wise but to no avail.
It is now a hard sell for me.

If the communication where he mentioned that there is a chipping in the screen guard is recorded in PM or otherwise, with my little legal knowledge I thing it is a strong case in favour of you. I do not have much clue about how to proceed but this post is a step in the right direction. Probably you need to escalate step by step based on the response from the other side.  Even without that communication recorded, the details about the status of the equipment in the original post is a binding on his part.

Thank you for your support.
Yes I have it on WhatsApp.
Just wanted to highlight this as he is one of the more active members and seemingly genuine and mostly responds to WTB posts.
Am sure others have had better experience with him but in this case he just pushed a damaged item.

I informed him as soon as I received the item.

[attachment deleted by admin]

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 06, 2019, 11:13:10 PM
Thank you for your support.
Yes I have it on WhatsApp.
Just wanted to highlight this as he is one of the more active members and seemingly genuine and mostly responds to WTB posts.
Am sure others have had better experience with him but in this case he just pushed a damaged item.

I understand your position

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 06, 2019, 11:18:23 PM
I informed him as soon as I received the item.

If you have some friend from the lawyer community it might be of help discussing the matter.

Can the mods mediate as Tom has not responded.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 08, 2019, 01:33:06 PM
Can the mods mediate as Tom has not responded.

Probably not the moderators' job.

We are on our own when it comes to buying and selling.

Quote from: Thad E G on August 08, 2019, 03:32:23 PM

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 08, 2019, 01:33:06 PM
Can the mods mediate as Tom has not responded.

Probably not the moderators' job.

We are on our own when it comes to buying and selling.

That's exactly right, Thad.  It is incumbent upon Members to vet each other and the deals offered before entering into an agreement to buy or sell.  See Rules 8, 26, 27, 28, and 29.

The whole point of the required Caution Statement at the beginning of each For Sale offer is to remind potential buyers (especially newbies and others who may not be familiar with the Rules) that they must accept full responsibility for the purchase decisions they make.

Almost appears I am at fault.
Strangely enough no mods made any comments on the transaction from Tom's end.
Not expecting a chiding but at least a mention.
I guess PocoLoco's reputation supercedes his actions.

Just a simple case of misplaced trust and part of a learning curve.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 10, 2019, 01:27:56 PM
Almost appears I am at fault.
Strangely enough no mods made any comments on the transaction from Tom's end.
Not expecting a chiding but at least a mention.
I guess PocoLoco's reputation supercedes his actions.

Just a simple case of misplaced trust and part of a learning curve.

Suprised that PocoLoco has not provided his angle of justification despite that this topic is active for a while. I guess he is actively participating in other discussions in recent times.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 10, 2019, 01:27:56 PM
Almost appears I am at fault.
Strangely enough no mods made any comments on the transaction from Tom's end.
Not expecting a chiding but at least a mention.
I guess PocoLoco's reputation supercedes his actions.

Just a simple case of misplaced trust and part of a learning curve.

You might want to post screenshots of the item description and closeup images of the camera screen (the whatsapp screenshot posted does not give a very good idea though it does seem like a crack on screen) to help explain your case. Just your side of the story may not be enough.

Hell, even the 'RULES' stickys seems to have vanished (hope this is only temporary). This dont look like a good omen ;-P

[attachment deleted by admin]

Hello Everyone,

This conversation is quite unnerving considering Tom/Locopoco is such a senior member.

Such misunderstandings is one of the key reasons I don't like to ship anything I have for sale, as our forum is built on integrity and a case like this shows the forum in such poor light.

I usually prefer to have a face to face meeting for anything i have for sale, But a few days back I was convinced to ship a camera kit to a familiar member, albeit one with whom I had never interacted with before. He asked me to get on a video call with him so that he could check the condition of the camera I had for sale. I found this to be a great way to avoid misunderstandings and also have a "face to face" chat with a fellow member.

I think prospective buyers can try this as a precaution - have a video whatsapp call with the buyer and ask him/her to show the item for sale in more detail on video for clarification. High resolution images of a damaged part can be requested if required.

I hope Tushar and Tom reach a resolution soon, and I hope Tom takes the time to clear his stand.

Maybe someone (mods?) can point Tom to this thread so he may choose to reply in case he isn't aware of this thread.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Regards,

Addy.

Quote from: Addy on August 10, 2019, 02:22:10 PM
Hello Everyone,

This conversation is quite unnerving considering Tom/Locopoco is such a senior member.

Such misunderstandings is one of the key reasons I don't like to ship anything I have for sale, as our forum is built on integrity and a case like this shows the forum in such poor light.

I usually prefer to have a face to face meeting for anything i have for sale, But a few days back I was convinced to ship a camera kit to a familiar member, albeit one with whom I had never interacted with before. He asked me to get on a video call with him so that he could check the condition of the camera I had for sale. I found this to be a great way to avoid misunderstandings and also have a "face to face" chat with a fellow member.

I think prospective buyers can try this as a precaution - have a video whatsapp call with the buyer and ask him/her to show the item for sale in more detail on video for clarification. High resolution images of a damaged part can be requested if required.

I hope Tushar and Tom reach a resolution soon, and I hope Tom takes the time to clear his stand.

Maybe someone (mods?) can point Tom to this thread so he may choose to reply in case he isn't aware of this thread.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Regards,

Addy.

Brillant Idea for Video Chats-- this will clear Bogus cheaters , like u see on OLX posting photos of camera copied from Google Images..
I would suggest , if we can get some reliable honest group member to act as a middle man from different cities,, he can see and test the camera / lens / and  rate  the condition -- for example ---  Bhopal M@nish can do it , like wise , in Mumbai Dilip M can do .. and so on...  like how B&H in USA do -- if you want to sell your  gear -- B&H will keep it with them , and rate the gear after inspecting thoroughly .

Quote from: Hemant Joshi on August 10, 2019, 07:47:51 PM

Quote from: Addy on August 10, 2019, 02:22:10 PM
Hello Everyone,

This conversation is quite unnerving considering Tom/Locopoco is such a senior member.

Such misunderstandings is one of the key reasons I don't like to ship anything I have for sale, as our forum is built on integrity and a case like this shows the forum in such poor light.

I usually prefer to have a face to face meeting for anything i have for sale, But a few days back I was convinced to ship a camera kit to a familiar member, albeit one with whom I had never interacted with before. He asked me to get on a video call with him so that he could check the condition of the camera I had for sale. I found this to be a great way to avoid misunderstandings and also have a "face to face" chat with a fellow member.

I think prospective buyers can try this as a precaution - have a video whatsapp call with the buyer and ask him/her to show the item for sale in more detail on video for clarification. High resolution images of a damaged part can be requested if required.

I hope Tushar and Tom reach a resolution soon, and I hope Tom takes the time to clear his stand.

Maybe someone (mods?) can point Tom to this thread so he may choose to reply in case he isn't aware of this thread.

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Regards,

Addy.

Brillant Idea for Video Chats-- this will clear Bogus cheaters , like u see on OLX posting photos of camera copied from Google Images..
I would suggest , if we can get some reliable honest group member to act as a middle man from different cities,, he can see and test the camera / lens / and  rate  the condition -- for example ---  Bhopal M@nish can do it , like wise , in Mumbai Dilip M can do .. and so on...  like how B&H in USA do -- if you want to sell your  gear -- B&H will keep it with them , and rate the gear after inspecting thoroughly .

Good Suggestions Hemanth.
I recently took the help of Harsha Vadlamani to verify a Facebook post from Hyderabad. Thank you very much Harsha for that..

I can offer my helping hand for deals at Chennai if they can wait till I visit during weekends.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 10, 2019, 01:27:56 PMAlmost appears I am at fault.Strangely enough no mods made any comments on the transaction from Tom's end.Not expecting a chiding but at least a mention.I guess PocoLoco's reputation supercedes his actions.Just a simple case of misplaced trust and part of a learning curve.

Are you asking the moderators to mediate? There's a whole lot of harm that can happen that way.Personally I'd prefer that moderators in any forum  moderate posts and not mediate actions between members.Which is precisely why the rules state the responsibility lies between the seller and buyer. Any issues are between them. The moderators will moderate the post to ensure that forum rules are followed.

Yes, I am well aware of this post, have been contacted by Mods, I do not like pressure on Forums to justify my position.
On 16 May I received a PM asking if I had any Olympus bodies for sale m I replied yes, my wife's EMI. I had not advertised the EM1 in the Want To Sell.  I the received a WhatsApp and negotiates began.  He said he had no lenses so I said I would include and unused Panasonic 14-45 Zoom.  The gear was shipped on 20 May and delivered on 22 May.  Total price Rs30,500   which included DTDC and insurance.  I received a WhattsApp on 5 Jun about the small chip (nick) on the edge of the screen and that he said really decreased the re-sale value.  I do not have the camera so cannot confirm if the screen guard is still on the camera or not but there had been.
These posts give me pause:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,55434.0.html
and
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,55885.0.html
On 17 Jun I received another WhatsApp asking if I would take back the camera.  I said no , my wife had already spent her money.
It is the pricing and timeline which are important.
I can draw a couple of conclusions from the posts and WhatsApps:
1. he is trying to experiment with lots of different cameras at no cost to himself or
2. He is trading (no problem with that if he tells me) . I have sold my gear to traders and dealers before) .

I have sent the entire WhatsApp to my Advocate .
I have not had any communication since 17 Jun 2019 until this was posted .
I do prefer people to inspect and pick up gear in Goa or have a trusted friend do same.  Has happened many times.
I will say no more.  People know me or they do not but this is not the place to let people determine any outcome.  I will stop selling gear on this forum and use my contacts built over the years.  All of the gear I sell was bought for my own use, most of it bought new with warranty.
Tom

What exactly were the items sold? Were the extra batteries and the travel charger also part of the deal?

Have received Tom's inputs.

Tushar Subhro, please respond.

What exactly were the items that you bought from Tom?

I had earlier deals with Tom. Very transparent deals.

I just want to point that the Tushar has put up the EM1 for sale where he says "There is a small chipping on the side of LCD not affecting the screen." If that is true, then where is the so much talked about issue? I feel buying second hand remotely has its own issues. We should go ahead only if we consider the risk. Unless, its big fraud or some issue affecting functionality, buyer should keep with it. Only other option is thorough inspection.

I would also like to know if the person Tushar is a trader or hobbyist. He has put up so much for sale on forum in last few months all going to so many brands.

Just trying to bring more clarity to the issue in hand.

Dear Bharat,

I had already posted in my first post what all was part of the deal.
I had no unpleasantries with Tom at any point.
I had even asked him categorically about the chipping BEFORE the purchase. But he had ignored it. (screenshot)

And as per as transparency to reselling, please check the screenshot. I am sure the best you can call me is an "overenthusiastic hobbyist". Now trying to to consolidate a little.

The only thing that left a sour taste is that Tom denied to acknowledge the fact that I would be at loss for the chipping unless of course Mahesh is willing to pick up the whole set for Rs.30,500 shipped since he was so satisfied in dealing with Tom.


[attachment deleted by admin]

So if I understand correctly, USING the forum, you purchased items for a total amount of Rs 30,500/- from a forum member, and shortly thereafter, put up the very same items for sale on the forum itself for Rs 40,000/-?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

QuoteAs part of the package he provided the camera with box and accessories, 2 after market batteries and a travel charger and leather case and strap. There was also a kit lens for the camera.

Item for Sale: Olympus OM-D E-M1 with extra accessories
Asking Price: Rs.34,000

Item for Sale: Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45/ F3.5-5.6 Asph Zoom Lens
Asking Price: 6,000 shipped

You are absolutely right. And I was well aware while marking it higher. I had taken permission from Tom that I will sell the body soon.
I put the lens on sale only recently and the total cost still comes to 30500 with 24500 and 6000 respectively.
I know what you are getting at and I was expecting this given your first response.
There are some "holier than thou" members it seems.
My whole point of posting in this topic was to bring it to light.
Cause I really bought the "my wife has spent the money" excuse.

And I was only expecting a response from Tom and I know that would be the only legal extent to which Mods can mediate.

1. About the "There are some "holier than thou" members it seems", your whatsapp screenshots and your "But he had ignored it" make it very clear that Tom did not clarify the chip. Why did you go ahead with the deal if you had any doubts that were not clarified? Tom is at fault for not verifying the chip. YOU are at fault for not insisting that he remove the screen guard and show the unblemished screen before going ahead with the purchase.

2. This forum is NOT meant for profiteering from deals made on the forum, which is what you certainly tried to do. Please refrain from any further dealing in the buy and sell section of the forum while the mods decide on the appropriate action.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 11, 2019, 03:27:02 PM
You are absolutely right. And I was well aware while marking it higher. I had taken permission from Tom that I will sell the body soon.
I put the lens on sale only recently and the total cost still comes to 30500 with 24500 and 6000 respectively.
I know what you are getting at and I was expecting this given your first response.
There are some "holier than thou" members it seems.
My whole point of posting in this topic was to bring it to light.
Cause I really bought the "my wife has spent the money" excuse.

I was well aware about the "profiteering" angle being highlighted by YOU before I posted the frown as there is a pattern to your moderation which I had noticed.
But I still went ahead with the post as both aspects needed to be brought to notice both for senior members and moderators.
And your "profiteering" clause is more so flawed in this forum as most of the members are much more experienced and they know the actual value of the product than me. They buy only if the price suits their needs. Else my EM1 won't be still unsold.
I would surely of course not post anything, but hope that there will be a collective decision and based on forum rules which are currently not visible.

BTW thank you for finally acknowledging that Tom is at fault for not verifying the chip.
Strangely none suggested an amicable solution.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 11, 2019, 09:03:48 PM
BTW thank you for finally acknowledging that Tom is at fault for not verifying the chip.

You may want to reread that whole statement, you are equally at fault for not getting the clarification and proceeding with the deal, in doing so you assumed all risks.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro
You are absolutely right. And I was well aware while marking it higher.

If you were aware you should not have done it, this is against forum rules.

Treat the mods with some respect, you wanted them to reply, now that they have you start throwing mud at them.

I usually discount my prices if you see my other posts.
I eventually sell it lower than what I mark initially.
That is my way of marketing.
Here I didn't eventually sell it.
It would be helpful if someone could suggest me the fair value of the product in it's present condition so that Tom and I can bear any depreciation mutually as I had suggested him initially.
And yes I trusted a 60 year old American who seemed genuine to me.
From henceforth be Indian buy Indian.
I fully understand that I shouldn't go for a sale unless fully convinced.
And yes I should have bought it up immediately after I received it before posting it.
And if you are following the thread I only wanted a response from Tom, for his wishful misinformation but I was being targeted for not being careful. The point is made.
And as far as reselling is concerned, I didn't resell products bought from the forum on it before this.
I do see a lot of stuff selling on the forum that had been purchased on the forum.
So is it that one cannot sell it.
Yes I lost my temper, Bharat was doing his job and it was beyond his control to extract response from an unwilling person and for obvious reasons.

.


irrespective of who is to blame here... it's important to understand a few simple things about this transaction.


the seller, intentionally not clarifying the chipped LCD is wrong. it was not a mistake. it was not oversight. it was intentional. 

the buyer not asking for clarification is carelessness or even demonstrates someone willing to trust a fellow forum "senior" forum member.

this all comes down to this... how difficult is it to remember and ask the camera's actual owner if the screen protector was removed?

is it really to much to ask? besides, it OBVIOUS from the picture posted by the buyer that there is no screen protector.

who are we kidding? nothing else matters!


(i'm writing this from the perspective of being someone who almost bought this EM1 from this same seller. Ended up buying a new EMii instead)

.

Quote from: Tushar Subhro on August 11, 2019, 10:54:37 PMAnd yes I trusted a 60 year old American who seemed genuine to me.
From henceforth be Indian buy Indian.

You didn't follow up on your query. And that's everybody else's fault but yours. And now you throw racism into it all. Don't expect sympathy!

The one suggestion I have for the mods is to close this topic.

Quote from: Thad E G on August 12, 2019, 01:21:53 AM
You didn't follow up on your query. And that's everybody else's fault but yours.

.

the buyer didn't follow up on his query OK... BUT, the seller ignored answering it, which, (once the buyer realized that the LCD had/has a crack on the LCD itself) now makes it seem like the seller knew all along that the LCD itself had a crack on it.

it doesn't matter if the buyer made a mistake in not following up with the seller. so what? is that dishonesty? NO!

this is a matter of being honest and forthcoming with someone who is giving you their hard earned money and expecting not to be disappointed/misinformed.


P.S: on another note... the words profiting and profiteering don't mean the same thing.

P.P.S: there are a lot of "senior" members on this forum who buy low and sell for higher.
most of them simply respond via PM to WTB ads instead of posting WTS ads.

.

QuoteP.S: on another note... the words profiting and profiteering don't mean the same thing.

Well aware of the distinction. "make or seek to make an excessive or unfair profit, especially illegally".

QuoteP.P.S: there are a lot of "senior" members on this forum who buy low and sell for higher.
most of them simply respond via PM to WTB ads instead of posting WTS ads.

Bringing such deals to the Mods' notice would be a sensible thing, wouldn't it?
If both of the activities (buying AND selling) occur ON this forum, it's a blatant violation of one of the most basic rules and NOT to be condoned. Preventing this is exactly why WTS posts are required to be left unchanged with the last mentioned price showing there.

Quote from: neo2510 on August 12, 2019, 03:43:10 AM

Quote from: Thad E G on August 12, 2019, 01:21:53 AM
You didn't follow up on your query. And that's everybody else's fault but yours.

.

the buyer didn't follow up on his query OK... BUT, the seller ignored answering it, which, (once the buyer realized that the LCD had/has a crack on the LCD itself) now makes it seem like the seller knew all along that the LCD itself had a crack on it.

it doesn't matter if the buyer made a mistake in not following up with the seller. so what? is that dishonesty? NO!

this is a matter of being honest and forthcoming with someone who is giving you their hard earned money and expecting not to be disappointed/misinformed.


P.S: on another note... the words profiting and profiteering don't mean the same thing.

P.P.S: there are a lot of "senior" members on this forum who buy low and sell for higher.
most of them simply respond via PM to WTB ads instead of posting WTS ads.

.

"This is a matter of being honest and forthcoming with someone who is giving you their hard earned money and expecting not to be disappointed/misinformed."
Sorry, the. Person who purchased items for 30k and selling it for 40k ?
The person selling the same equipment with the reason G
A S. Too many equipment.
I hope you do not consider this also as honesty.
Moreover this buyer surely a reseller and not permitted on this forum.

Guys - just chill in this topic for a week ok? Any more comments to be done via PMs to all mods.


@Tushar - you've got the mods to comment. It's on a sale that happened outside the WTS boards and was well outside what we'd comment on. You've now brought it within the forum. The lack of sympathy shown is not what you wanted and so you've started with comments about mods and race. If no one has warned you yet - negative personal comments are not acceptable. I will ask all mods to boot you off the forum if you make one more comment like that.


I have repeatedly said that if one buys things remotely the section and therefore responsibility is completely yours. Walk away if you aren't happy or continue if you are willing to take the chance. You can't lay the blame on the house for when your gamble turned out to not be in your favour. Neo2510, I'd suggest you digest what that means. There's no, 'but' here. @Tushar- You keep saying that you understand it was your responsibility, and then insert a 'but'. That really means you know it should be your responsibility but you don't want to own it. Posting on this board by your own admission was to pressurise PocoLoco on a public forum for a transaction that happened off it.


I don't really care about your style of marketing - you can't post things at a higher price than you bought it within a short time period. If you start any "what-aboutism", let me remind you that we are discussing you. Three other wrongs don't make this right. Obviously we can't police what is done through PMs, but really if the only reason to follow that rule is to avoid getting caught and not think about a gentlemanly honour of not using this forum for profiteering, then you need to rethink the word 'integrity' and what it means to you. There was been remarkably little integrity in this thread. It's not 'something', it's everything.

Dear Mods,

Just wanted to clarify/make a few points that may be of common concern here :-

1) We know a lot of selling actually takes place via WTB posts. Its not hard to see why. Such transactions do NOT get recorded on the forums or PMs as they are usually taken up via phone/whatsapp. Also there are many cases where someone responds to a WTB post and is then contacted by a third party who has interest in the gear. I understand from Vikram's post that such transactions would be classified as off-forum. Kindly confirm.

2) There are many sellers who deliberately veer the negotiation out of the forum (by requesting to contact via phone) for understandable reasons (Tushar just gave an example). Personally I am a big votary for doing all clarification/counter-clarification via PMs and sharing phone no. only when the deal is closed. I do NOT expect to record calls and produce that as evidence when required.

3) Think the MODS might want to consider putting some sort of a limit in place to check reselling/excessive selling, say 2 WTS a day or 5 per week, etc. This is kind of standard for most marketplaces

4) Also a thing about the 'last mentioned price' or 'last asking price'. Again we know that more often than not, items are sold below the 'last mentioned price' and no one bothers to update the actual sale price on the post. Thatway 'last mentioned price' may not have much significance. It might be better if we could request the seller/buyer to indicate 'actual sale price' on the post, not only for record but for reference/price discovery purposes as also check against reselling for profit.

Regards

All irrelevant comments removed.

QuoteGuys - just chill in this topic for a week ok? Any more comments to be done via PMs to all mods.

Please cooperate.

I purchased Fuji XE1 camera with Fujinon 18-55 kit lens on 3rd august,  after negotiating the price at INR 27,000/- plus shipping (which i have to pay) as Mr. Parampreet Dhatt told me to transfer that later.

Upon receiving the camera i tried clicking some pictures on 9th august. I was trying long exposure photography.
10th august as i started using lightroom to correct those photos, i found that the camera shows about 24 magenta/pink pixels in every photo. At the same spot, bottom left hand corner of the frame.
On 10th august i did some test keeping lens cap closed. The spots of such pixels were again apparant.
 In fast shutter speed, i.e. 1/500, its of less intensity and in long shutter, 15-30sec the magenta or pink gets more prominant.

I have shared the screenshot of my lightroom screen over whats app and Mr. Parampreet said he could not understand.
Then i transferred raw files of the test shots with Mr. Parampreet and he at first told me that he could not understand the files as they were all black (my test shots were with lens cap on) and maybe those spots were noise.
Over whats app, he forwarded some writings about "hot pixels" and how to correct them.

Then i again shared some fuji RAF raw files of actual photos on 12th august. This time i had slow shutter of self portraits with light trail/painting and 1/500th sec shot of a foliage, all clicked at 200 ISO.

To my knowledge of photography, this camera has "dead" pixels. About 24 of them. I have zoomed fully and seen.

The advertisement/post in WTS was mentioned that the camera is in perfect condition with very less shuttercount.

On rigorous exchange of  Fuji RAF files, conversations on phone and whats app and with due time, Mr. Parampreet Dhatt suggested me, today, to take the camera to Kolkata service center, get it serviced, pay in full, send him the invoice copy and then he will pay half of the service charge.

I asked him to pay the full service charge, in advance, bcoz repairing an item that has been listed as "in perfect working condition" is not my responsibility. I have to take care the entire incidental cost, harassment. Mr. Parampreet did not agree to this.

I also asked him to return the equipment as its not matching what he committed in his post.

Upon denial from Mr. Parampreet Dhatt and getting a camera which does not match the WTS post disclosure, i am keeping this frown.

Quote from: camera crew on August 16, 2019, 02:51:23 PM
I purchased Fuji XE1 camera with Fujinon 18-55 kit lens on 3rd august,  after negotiating the price at INR 27,000/- plus shipping (which i have to pay) as Mr. Parampreet Dhatt told me to transfer that later.

Upon receiving the camera i tried clicking some pictures on 9th august. I was trying long exposure photography.
10th august as i started using lightroom to correct those photos, i found that the camera shows about 24 magenta/pink pixels in every photo. At the same spot, bottom left hand corner of the frame.
On 10th august i did some test keeping lens cap closed. The spots of such pixels were again apparant.
In fast shutter speed, i.e. 1/500, its of less intensity and in long shutter, 15-30sec the magenta or pink gets more prominant.

I have shared the screenshot of my lightroom screen over whats app and Mr. Parampreet said he could not understand.
Then i transferred raw files of the test shots with Mr. Parampreet and he at first told me that he could not understand the files as they were all black (my test shots were with lens cap on) and maybe those spots were noise.
Over whats app, he forwarded some writings about "hot pixels" and how to correct them.

Then i again shared some fuji RAF raw files of actual photos on 12th august. This time i had slow shutter of self portraits with light trail/painting and 1/500th sec shot of a foliage, all clicked at 200 ISO.

To my knowledge of photography, this camera has "dead" pixels. About 24 of them. I have zoomed fully and seen.

The advertisement/post in WTS was mentioned that the camera is in perfect condition with very less shuttercount.

On rigorous exchange of  Fuji RAF files, conversations on phone and whats app and with due time, Mr. Parampreet Dhatt suggested me, today, to take the camera to Kolkata service center, get it serviced, pay in full, send him the invoice copy and then he will pay half of the service charge.

I asked him to pay the full service charge, in advance, bcoz repairing an item that has been listed as "in perfect working condition" is not my responsibility. I have to take care the entire incidental cost, harassment. Mr. Parampreet did not agree to this.

I also asked him to return the equipment as its not matching what he committed in his post.

Upon denial from Mr. Parampreet Dhatt and getting a camera which does not match the WTS post disclosure, i am keeping this frown.

http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,5808.200.html

You should always check sellers past history

Camera Crew, do you have any photographs shot with the camera before you finalized the deal?

Quote from: camera crew on August 16, 2019, 02:51:23 PM
Upon denial from Mr. Parampreet Dhatt and getting a camera which does not match the WTS post disclosure, i am keeping this frown.

This is most unfortunate indeed. It's surprising to see things like "dead/hot pixels" and "replaced shutters" not finding their way on the disclosures. Even more surprising to see sellers discouraging genuine queries as "unwanted" comments on WTS threads or not 'disclosing' on thread even after accepting the issue on whatsapp/calls. Would request MODSs to clear the air on the these issues.

hello Dear Admin Bharat varma.
thanks for your prompt response.
I do not have the stills in Fuji RAF before the purchase. Mr Param had shared me some pics that he clicked before despatching the camera. Those were photos of newspaper that he clicked with normal shutter to check the working of the camera. He did share them, when I sent him the first lot of test RAF pics with lens cap closed.
We can try to find the problem in these "newspaper pics", but as I already mentioned, this problem gets enhanced in "long shutter speeds".

I also have the first slow shutter pic, with this "pixel damage" which is one of the first few shots I took after receiving the camera.

   
• Do the initial images shared with you show prior to the sale show any such pixels?
• At what shutter speed do you start seeing the pixels?
• Do you have long exposure noise reduction enabled? Also known as dark frame subtraction? Please check in the manual and enable it, then take some shots.
• Since the seller has committed to reimburse the full cost of the service, please show the camera to Fuji service and share the service report.

Quote from: camera crew on August 16, 2019, 09:51:51 PM
hello Dear Admin Bharat varma.
thanks for your prompt response.
I do not have the stills in Fuji RAF before the purchase. Mr Param had shared me some pics that he clicked before despatching the camera. Those were photos of newspaper that he clicked with normal shutter to check the working of the camera. He did share them, when I sent him the first lot of test RAF pics with lens cap closed.
We can try to find the problem in these "newspaper pics", but as I already mentioned, this problem gets enhanced in "long shutter speeds".

I also have the first slow shutter pic, with this "pixel damage" which is one of the first few shots I took after receiving the camera.

Quote from: camera crew on August 16, 2019, 02:51:23 PM
I purchased Fuji XE1 camera with Fujinon 18-55 kit lens on 3rd august,  after negotiating the price at INR 27,000/- plus shipping (which i have to pay) as Mr. Parampreet Dhatt told me to transfer that later.

Upon receiving the camera i tried clicking some pictures on 9th august. I was trying long exposure photography.
10th august as i started using lightroom to correct those photos, i found that the camera shows about 24 magenta/pink pixels in every photo. At the same spot, bottom left hand corner of the frame.
On 10th august i did some test keeping lens cap closed. The spots of such pixels were again apparant.
In fast shutter speed, i.e. 1/500, its of less intensity and in long shutter, 15-30sec the magenta or pink gets more prominant.

I have shared the screenshot of my lightroom screen over whats app and Mr. Parampreet said he could not understand.
Then i transferred raw files of the test shots with Mr. Parampreet and he at first told me that he could not understand the files as they were all black (my test shots were with lens cap on) and maybe those spots were noise.
Over whats app, he forwarded some writings about "hot pixels" and how to correct them.

Then i again shared some fuji RAF raw files of actual photos on 12th august. This time i had slow shutter of self portraits with light trail/painting and 1/500th sec shot of a foliage, all clicked at 200 ISO.

To my knowledge of photography, this camera has "dead" pixels. About 24 of them. I have zoomed fully and seen.

The advertisement/post in WTS was mentioned that the camera is in perfect condition with very less shuttercount.

On rigorous exchange of  Fuji RAF files, conversations on phone and whats app and with due time, Mr. Parampreet Dhatt suggested me, today, to take the camera to Kolkata service center, get it serviced, pay in full, send him the invoice copy and then he will pay half of the service charge.

I asked him to pay the full service charge, in advance, bcoz repairing an item that has been listed as "in perfect working condition" is not my responsibility. I have to take care the entire incidental cost, harassment. Mr. Parampreet did not agree to this.

I also asked him to return the equipment as its not matching what he committed in his post.

Upon denial from Mr. Parampreet Dhatt and getting a camera which does not match the WTS post disclosure, i am keeping this frown.

A lot of such posts tend to descend into a plethora of rhetoric and emotions, hiding the actual facts from the picture.
To avoid doing that, I'll first present the facts and the technical aspects of the issue before offering any personal opinions.

1. The camera belonged to my friend and this fact is clearly mentioned in my post.
2. The return policy clearly defined on the post is: "Buyer is encouraged to do full due diligence before buying, no returns applicable thereafter." However, as a responsible seller, I'm prepared to offer suitable restitution in case of any issues with the camera which I may have missed inadvertently due to oversight.
3. The buyer Prabal Bose (username: cameracrew), did not seek *any* sample images or pictures taken from the camera *prior* to the sale. As his usage seems to entail specialized use of the camera (i.e. for long exposures), he could have easily asked for sample long exposure images for review before finalizing the deal.
4. The deal was fixed at 27K + shipping. I asked him to transfer 27k before the sale and the shipping cost after receiving the item.
5. Before shipping the items, to ensure everything was working fine, I took a few test shots at 18mm, 23mm, 35mm, 55mm and examined them and they seemed fine. I also took a few shots at slower shutter speeds (1/6 secs) to ensure the image stabilization on the lens was working fine. These shots are given in the following link:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnCdvhrPSrGfgXMFO7cj7N5fXDe_?e=VSfMBe
6. After receiving the items, Mr. Prabal Bose called me up on 10th morning and told me that there was a problem with the camera and had sent me few pics over WhatsApp showing the issue. I wasn't able to make much out of the WhatsApp pics and asked him to share a few RAW files showing the issue.
7. Mr. Prabal shared a set of 8 RAW files. I wasn't able to much from these RAW files either and as some of the long exposure shots were taken at ISO 2000, I requested him to share some RAW files of shots taken at the base ISO to eliminate the possibility of high ISO noise being a contributing factor.
8. Mr. Prabal sent a set of 4 more RAW files (3 long exposures and 1 normal exposure) taken at the base ISO (200). After examining these shots, I could see some spots on the long exposure images, which looked to be hot pixels as they were not present on the image with normal exposure. Comparing the shots, I could see around 2 pixels which seemed to be at the same position on both the long and regular exposures, indicating that they were dead or stuck pixels. We had a call in this regard where I acknowledged the presence of these 1-2 dead (or stuck) pixels in these images. Contrary to his claim now ("To my knowledge of photography, this camera has "dead" pixels. About 24 of them. I have zoomed fully and seen."), on the same call, he acknowledged that there is only one dead pixel and the other spots on the long exposure images are reflections from his moving the light around during the exposure and also confirmed he has no issues with any spots on the long exposure, except for the aforementioned dead (or stuck) pixel seen at the same place on both the normal and long exposure. I have a recording of this call, which I can provide if needed to corroborate this statement.
9. During this call, Mr. Prabal also acknowledged that the camera is in excellent ("almost unused") condition. He confirmed that he has no issues with the camera at all and is very happy in all aspects except for the aforementioned dead pixel issue. He even complimented me on the packing of the items.
10. He asked me to speak to the owner of the camera and arrange for a refund. I confirmed that I would speak to my friend and come back with a solution. He asked me to get back to him by 15th August evening, to which I agreed.
11. Subsequently, I spoke to my friend and sent the RAW files to him. He examined the RAW files and with great difficulty managed to locate the spots in question. We both agreed that there wasn't justified grounds for return/refund due to minuscule nature of the problem (1 or 2 odd pixels among 16 million!) and the fact that dead (or stuck) pixels can appear at any time on the camera sensor irrespective of age and condition (more on this aspect below).
12. I did some more reading on the subject online and found that the issue can be resolved by a Fuji service center by remapping the offending pixels.
13. Prabal and I spoke again on 15th August evening, where I suggested getting the camera serviced/repaired from the Fuji service center. He expressed reluctance over this as it may be cost-prohibitive (his assumption was that the repair may cost more than the value of the camera itself) and continued insisting on a refund. I told him that the procedure only involved mapping the offending pixels and not replacement of the sensor or any other hardware component. I opined that we should at least get an estimate from the service center to get an idea of the cost involved. He replied that "he is very busy and doesn't have time for this", to which I offered to speak to the Fuji service center in Kolkata and get the cost estimate and any other required details. He agreed to this and asked me to share details by the next day, post which he would align some person at his end to send the camera to the service center.
14. On 16th morning, I spoke to the Fuji service center in Kolkata as agreed (address: Room No. 502A, 5th Floor, Diamond Prestige Building, Acharya Jagadish Chandra Bose Road, Kolkata; phone number: 033-40268500). A person at the desk picked the call and directed me to speak to the technical person, Mr. Gautam (+91-8697985740). I spoke to Mr. Gautam and explained the issue of dead pixels on the camera sensor, to which he recommended getting the camera serviced, which would resolve the issue with dead pixels and would also cover cleaning, lubricating, firmware updates etc. He gave Rs. 2326 as the cost of servicing.
15. I shared these details with Mr. Prabal over WhatsApp and offered to split the cost of service 50-50. He called me back refused the 50-50 split and asked me to pay the entire amount in advance for him to consider this option. I offered to reimburse the full cost post-facto, after production of the invoice, but he refused this option and continued to insist on a full refund/return. On asking the reason for demanding advance payment, his reasoning was that if relations sour between us while the camera is in the service station, I may refuse to reimburse the amount thereafter. I found this especially disconcerting given that I had trusted him in terms of paying the courier charges after receiving the item whereas he was unwilling to extend me the same trust (in fact I still haven't asked him for the courier charges). In the end, I even offered to discuss and get back to him regarding the possibility of advance payment for servicing; he asked to me get back in this regard by 5 pm. I spoke to my friend and we collectively agreed to offer him the full amount for servicing (Rs. 2326) as advance to avoid any further hassles. Unfortunately, before I could convey this to him, he went ahead and posted this frown at 2:51 pm.

Now, some technical aspects of the discussion at hand:

The following link contains details on dead vs stuck vs hot pixels:
https://photographylife.com/dead-vs-stuck-vs-hot-pixels

I'm pasting some relevant extracts from this link below to help understand dead, stuck and hot pixels better:

(https://3cgffa.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mkbkdAo3Y3N49KKBQDXY54HT3SOF-eXQHadBlg3Z7qyewePdzO2y7s3UJxdGAQP6153yqXI6cn7M9kyGSC_rZTg38bdDi5ixcKKrZ8iJFpohkIJg2hrfVBBjWpPmkM8hMyDRHalVChVsnBg9Rc3RmeS_f0W78Un9nIEMONQ2qZO6sUakPnSSmreDGwOnUvqdGieSm7IGIbOvtw4gOrFNvZQ?width=692&height=300&cropmode=none)

(https://3cfw2g.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mnywsjPiox9WWqHGvAY-nty54FYai-8NFeJESDxlhd5yAyRs88eoOWLdF-zKkFYZaqhB5lai3QsqRkJ1Nhr0MM0DDwwooKHR-SjCAi7_XYcibo16lVbmIoQsuSqZVz6rI46UQuK3OC7yCUJ7US3wFggOQ2H-kPxYc4C6cVOKJBNflcG4HI4Mpp_GmghXKHtnAXBSHfcnr2rAkssci2G2y6A?width=701&height=471&cropmode=none)

(https://3ceg8q.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mGU9hoPGOmvmyUnaFhXrZ11TrSJn7f0SIuTlWcE0bvtazHebstFtDHterOof56iOh_ewFH-ePk589l3jtqJGVFMT4sq6BJGi9PcQCRes-ERFp0zKdYam4yaEylfqOZndsPyp4yn1jpy156Vq_uIead6zw_X_atyfy2NeVx_TYN_GvExSwdP0FfID0lyjM40KL0YhDfI7eSEi05kL4oqAavg?width=697&height=562&cropmode=none)

Fujifilm uses "X-Trans CMOS" sensors in the X-series cameras, which are different from CMOS sensors (used by all other camera manufactuters) featuring a conventional Bayer filter array, due to different arrangement of photosites.
Due to this, the software being used to process the RAW file has a major bearing on the output depending on the demosaicing algorithms used by the software (Adobe is particularly notorious for their poor handling of X-Trans based RAW files). To remove any possibility of software bias while examining the RAW files, I used Fuji's official RAW processing software - "RAW FILE CONVERTER EX 3.0 powered by SILKYPIX" (https://www.fujifilm.com/support/digital_cameras/software/myfinepix_studio/rfc/index.html).
The following are the screenshots of some of the files shared by Prabal in this software showing the stuck pixel at 300% magnification:

Long exposure:
(https://3cezqg.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mY7jw31ed4Q8hlCdeDhpbaCs6HlvFYDBNCLb-BD7dySr0nTeaCn4j_pLjWQsVzMJjusocnUfwfddLuU4CZeW35ZkVgtICS6Ep-7T4g5g8raMkQ8F_us_6WUPN6TPQUhVW-Av4jEeWvNtw0LrnPX-2y13H_euU00S5UpumWOoBcB90nC0Q-_s5ZhYHPd5NlO71S2Y00ACGV6nkMezhTyrELg?width=1024&height=589&cropmode=none)

The offending pixel at the same position and magnification on the image with normal exposure:
(https://3chqbw.dm.files.1drv.com/y4m_QVffnfyDAO9_3mGXam0Z8cvDDPECU9bAqgyuZ0xwDgXYrH7XIIhtgMWkMh28xHVz8RHDvsofB-aF7DTm11bx8o1ZDT4NlsljzuJwHlxmnReMkfeVCH5zpu5eiCTwLttxr9AdQ6dr_dbpIQeKqlP-1tB9blv5IB4j9DftuS8cddsGEQzBTiAys8-NAGd9syLKSQN5ZY-fiwXJ3nn-5Mrrw?width=1024&height=589&cropmode=none)

A few observations from these screenshots:
1. As per the definition given above, this appears to be a stuck and not a dead pixel.
2. How prominent this "defect" appears on a normal exposure image can be gauged from the 2nd screenshot.

Both these screenshots are available in larger size at the following link:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnCdvhrPSrGfggShWWQAkBzrN60C?e=QQr1DB

The RAW files displayed in these screenshots are available on the following link:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnCdvhrPSrGfgXVlJrpFsI3fTlOj?e=b0fVo6

My thoughts on the matter:
1. In any buy-sell transaction on this forum (or elsewhere), both the buyer and seller have a certain set of responsibilities. The responsibility of the buyer is to properly examine the item (in person, through a friend, on a video call or through sample images) in all aspects before going ahead with the deal to ensure there is no dissatisfaction thereafter (especially for transactions which clearly state - "Buyer is encouraged to do full due diligence before buying, no returns applicable thereafter."). The responsibility of the seller to be transparent about all aspects of the item (including defects or missing items, if any), and in case any issue is discovered later due to oversight, offer suitable restitution to the buyer. (Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere with these statements)
2. The missing items (lens hood, camera body cap and rear lens caps) are clearly mentioned in the post.
2. Whether there was any wilful concealment on my part with respect to the stuck pixels can be gauged by examining how prominent the effect appears on the normal exposure shots. I'm emphasizing normal exposure shots here because I didn't shoot any long exposures with this camera. I doubt all sellers selling cameras on the forum tend to blow up images by 300% or more and examine every nook and cranny for issues like these.
3. When evidence of the issue was shared with me by the buyer, I fully acknowledged the issue and offered suitable restitution.
4. Even for a camera under warranty, 1 or 2 dead or stuck pixels will not cause the OEM (Fujifilm in this case) to issue a refund or replacement for the item. They would direct the user to approach the service center to get the issue fixed, which is exactly what I offered to the buyer!
5. Throughout the conversations with the buyer, there was always a veiled threat of tarnishing my reputation on the forum (which he made good on) in case I didn't toe his line in terms of offering a full refund. He even "advised" me on multiple occasions not to risk my reputation for someone else's camera and push my friend for a full refund.

Dear Mods,

As you are looking at the issue now, I would wait for your thoughts after considering points from both sides and suggest the way ahead.
Please let me know if there's any further information required from my end.

Adequate.

Let camera crew respond to my queries.

Quote from: Bharat Varma on August 16, 2019, 11:14:49 PM

   
• Do the initial images shared with you show prior to the sale show any such pixels?
• At what shutter speed do you start seeing the pixels?
• Do you have long exposure noise reduction enabled? Also known as dark frame subtraction? Please check in the manual and enable it, then take some shots.
• Since the seller has committed to reimburse the full cost of the service, please show the camera to Fuji service and share the service report.

dear admin Bharat Varma

1. yes the initial image that has been uploaded prior to the Sale, File DSCF6030.RAF, in the link do show the "dead/hot/stuck pixel".
They are apparent at 100% zoom in, at 300%, they show a cluster, at 800%, it shows there are 24 damaged pixels. 12 of them severely damaged, rest 12 in their surrounding.
At slower shutter speed, the test and the photographs I had clicked, in base ISO 200, the effect is more prominent.

I do understand that digital sensor might have, or, develop "damaged pixels (dead/hot/stuck)". Had this "damaged pixels" been scattered one here and there, I would have not created this frown post.
My fear is that this damage might spread, as it is clustered on one place.
Its 2 pixel in 6 row that is heavily damaged (permanently "pink") and the periphery left column and right column of another 12 pixels that is somewhat damaged.

(I deny that I have said the seller that only one or two pixels are damaged.)
The RAF files are existing, pre Sale and also post Sale, so any third can verify the actual no of damaged pixels.

2. it appears is 200 iso, at 1/20th of a sec, as seen in the pics uploaded by the Seller.

3. I haven't enabled 'in camera noise reduction' as I prefer it to use the Lightroom or capture one noise reduction algorithm.

4. I am fully OK if the Seller is agreeing to pay the cost of repairing of such "damaged pixels".
I only disagreed to "split in 50:50".

Reading this latest frown I gather:

1. Camera Crew has specific photography needs and should have asked for raw files to check for dead/stuck pixels. I can't remember if I've taken more than 5-10 long exposure shots in 5 yrs+ of photography.

2. My new Nikon 750D had dead stuck pixel on the LCD from Day 1. It never bothered me. So my point is if you know you have a low tolerance limit for any unforeseen minor defects ( paint loss, loose grip, missing cables) you should stick to buying new equipment.

3. I wonder if B&H , KEH advertise stuck or dead pixels when selling gear ?? I have come across 2-3 buyers who have had remorse after buying gear. Maybe the gear didn't meet their expectations or they just got over G.A.S having once used the equipment.

4. X-E1 is not a new camera. Getting one in good condition as the buyer agrees in rare. (The buyer seems to have already made a killer deal ) I would have not bothered to take the hassle or explaining over such details and simply taken the camera back.

Quote from: camera crew on August 17, 2019, 10:54:33 AMThey are apparent at 100% zoom in, at 300%, they show a cluster, at 800%, it shows there are 24 damaged pixels. 12 of them severely damaged, rest 12 in their surrounding.

So, you zoom in 800% and discover 24 dead or damaged pixels representing 0.0000015‬% of the 16 million on a consumer grade camera like the XE-1?  ::)

I don't think even a brand new camera will be faultless at this level of pixel peeping!! And yeah, I'm a former Fuji XE-1 system owner.

Quote from: Hyperdrive on August 17, 2019, 12:05:04 PM

Quote from: camera crew on August 17, 2019, 10:54:33 AMThey are apparent at 100% zoom in, at 300%, they show a cluster, at 800%, it shows there are 24 damaged pixels. 12 of them severely damaged, rest 12 in their surrounding.

So, you zoom in 800% and discover 24 dead or damaged pixels representing 0.0000015‬% of the 16 million on a consumer grade camera like the XE-1?  ::)

I don't think even a brand new camera will be faultless at this level of pixel peeping!! And yeah, I'm a former Fuji XE-1 system owner.

I second this, many new cameras may have more dead pixels than this.

Quote from: cymric on August 17, 2019, 11:45:37 AM
Reading this latest frown I gather:

1. Camera Crew has specific photography needs and should have asked for raw files to check for dead/stuck pixels. I can't remember if I've taken more than 5-10 long exposure shots in 5 yrs+ of photography.

2. My new Nikon 750D had dead stuck pixel on the LCD from Day 1. It never bothered me. So my point is if you know you have a low tolerance limit for any unforeseen minor defects ( paint loss, loose grip, missing cables) you should stick to buying new equipment.

I thoroughly agree with both your points here.

Quote from: cymric on August 17, 2019, 11:45:37 AM
3. I wonder if B&H , KEH advertise stuck or dead pixels when selling gear ?? I have come across 2-3 buyers who have had remorse after buying gear. Maybe the gear didn't meet their expectations or they just got over G.A.S having once used the equipment.

His (overzealous) attempts at forcing a return and stonewalling any other attempts at restitution in spite of his own acknowledgement that the camera is in perfect cosmetic and working condition in all aspects (except the issue in question), struck me as either buyers' remorse, having found a better deal or that the Fuji system didn't satisfy his needs fully. However, this is just conjecture and I may be wrong here.

Quote from: cymric on August 17, 2019, 11:45:37 AM
4. X-E1 is not a new camera. Getting one in good condition as the buyer agrees in rare. (The buyer seems to have already made a killer deal ) I would have not bothered to take the hassle or explaining over such details and simply taken the camera back.

Regarding returning the item, I would happily agree to a return provided there is a justified ground for doing so. Offering a return just to avoid "hassles" may encourage a trend of "try and buy" activities on the forum where buyers may "hassle" the seller into accepting a return for an item that they just didn't like.
I'm not sure under what circumstances would even a camera manufacturer consider offering a full refund on a new item. As an example, even Nikon did not offer any refunds on D600 bodies which exhibited the now-famous sensor dust/oil spots issue due to defective shutter assembly (a MAJOR issue in my opinion) and only offered repairs through the service center. Hence, I don't believe a seller selling a 2nd hand item should be expected to go over and above what even a camera manufacturer would offer in similar circumstances.

Sufficient evidence of willful concealment of any defect by the seller would be a justified ground for a return/refund in my opinion (please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Also, in the context of the issue at hand, no manufacturer offers any guarantees that dead or stuck pixels would not be present even on a brand new item or not appear over time on the sensor. These issues can occur in any camera with age and normal wear and tear. The only solution offered by the manufacturers in this case is to take the item to the service center and get it repaired there.

There are TWO types of noise reduction in digital cameras.

One is high ISO noise reduction, which I understand you do not want done in-camera, and that's fine. Most people do prefer to do this manually.

The second one is "Long Exposure Noise Reduction", which shoots a second frame (dark frame) and subtracts it from the first (main) image, in order to remove the long exposure noise (which occurs unavoidably in ALL consumer cameras). That's what I asked you to check, and switch on if it was off.

See this -

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/npan-blog-testing-your-cameras-tolerance-long-exposure-noise

Quote from: camera crew on August 17, 2019, 10:54:33 AM

Quote from: Bharat Varma on August 16, 2019, 11:14:49 PM

   
• Do the initial images shared with you show prior to the sale show any such pixels?
• At what shutter speed do you start seeing the pixels?
• Do you have long exposure noise reduction enabled? Also known as dark frame subtraction? Please check in the manual and enable it, then take some shots.
• Since the seller has committed to reimburse the full cost of the service, please show the camera to Fuji service and share the service report.

dear admin Bharat Varma

1. yes the initial image that has been uploaded prior to the Sale, File DSCF6030.RAF, in the link do show the "dead/hot/stuck pixel".
They are apparent at 100% zoom in, at 300%, they show a cluster, at 800%, it shows there are 24 damaged pixels. 12 of them severely damaged, rest 12 in their surrounding.
At slower shutter speed, the test and the photographs I had clicked, in base ISO 200, the effect is more prominent.

I do understand that digital sensor might have, or, develop "damaged pixels (dead/hot/stuck)". Had this "damaged pixels" been scattered one here and there, I would have not created this frown post.
My fear is that this damage might spread, as it is clustered on one place.
Its 2 pixel in 6 row that is heavily damaged (permanently "pink") and the periphery left column and right column of another 12 pixels that is somewhat damaged.

(I deny that I have said the seller that only one or two pixels are damaged.)
The RAF files are existing, pre Sale and also post Sale, so any third can verify the actual no of damaged pixels.

2. it appears is 200 iso, at 1/20th of a sec, as seen in the pics uploaded by the Seller.

3. I haven't enabled 'in camera noise reduction' as I prefer it to use the Lightroom or capture one noise reduction algorithm.

4. I am fully OK if the Seller is agreeing to pay the cost of repairing of such "damaged pixels".
I only disagreed to "split in 50:50".

From Fuji -

"To reduce "noise" (mottling) in long time-exposures, select [ON] for [LONG EXPOSURE NR] in the shooting menu. Note that this may increase the time needed to record images after shooting."

http://fujifilm-dsc.com/en/manual/x100t/shooting/long_time-exposure/index.html

Just for fun, I thought I'd take a long exposure with my spanking new (1.5 months old) and top of the line Sony a7R III (representing the epitome of mirrorless technology) with the Long Exposure Noise Reduction setting turned off and this is what I got:  :D :D

(https://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1CcZHMU-ieztOlplPBTzT7bEFao-nmy3e)

Dear Admin Bharat Varma,
I did read that NPAN Blog in Bhphotovideo.com. Thank you for sharing that.
I did Long exposure Noise reduction in camera just now, and took test pics. The problem persists.

This is not a "noise" but a defective pixel bunch. It can be dead/hot/stuck, whatever.
It is an array of 24 identifiable damaged pixels, 2 in 6 rows and rest 6 on either side of that.
No matter what we do, its a permanent damage. And I am telling this bcoz I have a bit of technical degrees and understanding of photosites and their working principles.

My point is, that one does not need to zoom into pixel peeping level, a mere 100% zoom in in any RAW processing software, be it Adobe Camera Raw, Lightroom, Capture One, will show this issue. I zoomed in detail, to find exactly how severe the damage is.

As the seller is an experienced photographer and technically well knowledged about photo editing too, such pixel damage could not have escaped his eyes while checking the pics prior to the Sale.

I would not have created this issue if the damaged pixels were spread over different parts of the image. Any new digital sensor could have it. Considering the XE1 camera age, and that it is a second hand buy, I could have been ok with it.
The concern is that is is clustered in one spot.


I also want to keep some clarifications about comments I read from other members.

Firstly, Long exposure Photography is not my special requirement, If I need to do that, I have a Fuji 50R and Phase one cameras to take care.

Secondly, those who have Pointed about GAS, I am sorry, I don't have that.
kindly see my queries to WTS in history, how much I comment on these posts.

Thirdly, yes I do believe second hand equipment will be not "brand new type".
But, there should be a disclosure of those defects atleast if in the sensor of a digital camera.
Here is my point. Mr. Parampreet is a senior member, an experienced photographer and photo editor. Its is very unlikely of him to miss such pixel defects.

Fourth, I did not need to zoom to 800% and pixel peep. A mere 100% zoom will be enough. I zoomed in to find the severity of the issue.

And lastly, I do not have buying remorse. I know this camera was a "killer deal" as pointed by a member, but then, on hindsight, I feel the Seller agreed at that price, bcoz, maybe he knew that it has defective pixels.




This was a deal that did not go through well. first time in my JJMPF history of about 8 years.
I am a JJMPF member when we did not even have such good resolution pics of items to be sold, no name, date, sl. number tags. People relied more on each others honest opinions. Even Phone nos, forget whatsapp, were not allowed on WTS posts.

I should have been more responsible to ask for more test pics before [snip]


If anyone really keen to understand/find/judge who is wrong, kindly take 10 RAF files, some before and couple after the Sale.

Thank you.
I have nothing more to say.

Mod Note:
This post was edited to bring it into compliance with RULE 23a (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,55930.0.html).

Please send me the test pics that you have just taken.

Just one more thing, have you tried taking the actual pictures that you would take on the field and see if this affects your pictures. Just black long shutter releases would also increase a lot of amp noise and make this look a lot worse than it is. I think in actual long shutter pictures these dead pixels will not show up.

The first identified picture was a long shutter of bridge on river hoogly. That was the very next morning i got thw camera, even before i tried the test pics with lens cap on. After that, i did some tests, bcoz i thought those "damaged pixel spot" was some artifacts or foliage floating on the river.
One of the 2nd lot of RAF files has my self portrait with light painting. There are pictures of foliage, shot in 1/500th of a second.
The most important thing, the RAF files shared by the seller in that link, especially the first one, the damaged pixel is noticable in 50% zoom in Lightroom Classic.
All damaged pixel in one spot is noticable in 50% magnification, forget 100% zoomed pixel peeping.


Kindly PM me your email id. I shall share the RAF of photograpghs of actual scene, tests with lenscap attached and tests today with long exposure noise reduction on, in tge camera after suggested by admin.


Just a small reminder, i have purchased and sold more than 20 items in this forum for last 8 years. Never i have put a frown. Never any seller could point i did a bad deal with them. There have been people who waited months after my part payments.
Never anyone i have sold to, have put a frown. No buyer ever accused me of stating wrong description and incorrect pricing.
Also if i had G.A.S as pointed out, i would have not bought so less and sold so little.

I am keeping three attachments.
First, DSCF6063.RAF is a 50% zoom of the RAW file of long exposure i did where i first noticed this damage pixel.
Second DSCF6030.RAF is the 100% zoom of the RAW file the seller clicked at 1/20th of a sec, pre Sale, as he shared in the post.
Third, DSCF6169.RAF is a test pic with long exposure noise reduction on, clicked today, as suggested by Mr. Bharat.



[attachment deleted by admin]

I'm not going to comment on the 2/12/16/15000 pixel out of 16 million pixels issue.


The rules state: "Caution!  Buyers must read the Forum Rules and do their own due diligence before buying"
[/size]
Buyers must do their OWN due diligence BEFORE buying. No matter who they are buying from. If they close the deal in a hurry out of even possible fear of losing out on a bargain, well, that's their decision to have bought sight unseen.

If the buyer does due diligence after buying and finds something wrong, well then the buyer needs to take complete ownership of their decisions and not lay it at anyone else's feet,.

Quote from: sydbarett on August 12, 2019, 11:42:52 AM
Dear Mods,

Just wanted to clarify/make a few points that may be of common concern here :-

1) We know a lot of selling actually takes place via WTB posts. Its not hard to see why. Such transactions do NOT get recorded on the forums or PMs as they are usually taken up via phone/whatsapp. Also there are many cases where someone responds to a WTB post and is then contacted by a third party who has interest in the gear. I understand from Vikram's post that such transactions would be classified as off-forum. Kindly confirm.

2) There are many sellers who deliberately veer the negotiation out of the forum (by requesting to contact via phone) for understandable reasons (Tushar just gave an example). Personally I am a big votary for doing all clarification/counter-clarification via PMs and sharing phone no. only when the deal is closed. I do NOT expect to record calls and produce that as evidence when required.

3) Think the MODS might want to consider putting some sort of a limit in place to check reselling/excessive selling, say 2 WTS a day or 5 per week, etc. This is kind of standard for most marketplaces

4) Also a thing about the 'last mentioned price' or 'last asking price'. Again we know that more often than not, items are sold below the 'last mentioned price' and no one bothers to update the actual sale price on the post. Thatway 'last mentioned price' may not have much significance. It might be better if we could request the seller/buyer to indicate 'actual sale price' on the post, not only for record but for reference/price discovery purposes as also check against reselling for profit.

Regards

1. Yes, most of the buying and selling between members of Jjmpf takes place outside the wts or wtb boards. I've said this before and I'll say it again: one should ask the seller to put up a post  if you're not sure. If you are sure and conclude the deal via PMs or WhatsApp or whatever, then it's off-forum.


2. Again, ask the seller to post a wts post


3. Not a feature available on the forum software.


4. As a seller we want to not bother with updating the price sold at and as a buyer we want to just close the deal before someone else buys it. "What's your best price" has become standard. Frankly, I'd rather everyone just puts up the price they expect ... but that's never going to happen.

Quote from: VikramF on August 18, 2019, 12:42:17 AM
2. Again, ask the seller to post a wts post

Thanks a lot for your clarifications Vikram.

On point no.2, I suppose I didnt make myself clear. What I meant was the seller already has a WTS in place wherein he is requesting to contact via phone (and not responding to PMs). In effect he is expecting to get a call where his deliberate non-disclosures/supression of facts DONT get recorded (or are NOT admissible evidence even if they are recorded). Such cases are quite common. There are live cases where sellers have accepted a problem on whatsapp/call but are still not updating their WTS post about it ! For such cases of 'wilful withholding of info' should a member report to MOD or just post on the WTS thread ?

There is one more vital issue I would request confirmation on. This is from the sellers perspective. Is the FROWNS sticky limited to feedback about 'completed' transactions only or can feedback also be posted on attempted transactions that highlight the risk/mal practices resorted to by certain parties/lowballers ? I think such feedback would go a long way in minimising the scourge of lowballing/non-starter transactions.

Here, I would also like to say a thing or two about classification of issues as 'trivial'. The very first item I bought on JJMPF, I received the item without a mount cap (it was supposed to be included). When I got back to the seller (an experienced one) he stopped responding to my PMs. If it had been Nikon/Canon mount I could have got one easily from the local market for 100-150 bucks (though I dont see why I should be bearing this cost/time) but this one was alpha mount and I had a hard time getting the cap which I eventually managed to get for 200 bucks after considerable searching. This could have been a trivial issue to some, to me it certainly wasnt. I think the same goes for the extant issue of pixels too. I'm really surprised to see experienced photographers classifying low shutter speed as "specialised requirement" (why landscapists, astro guys, time-lapse guys, night photographers do it all the time especially those who use tripods). I might have been tempted to dismiss 3-4 sporadic pixels as a trivial issue but 24 pixels concentrated in a cluster (assuming the figure is correct, I have not verified the RAF files) - I'm not so sure. Whatever it is, its certainly NOT something to be inadvertently missed by an experienced photographer/editor. The other thing is - if this deal was that good and the pixel issue is that 'trivial', someone should have probably offered to take it from the buyer by now.

If you had such a bad experience on the forum, I wonder why you keep posting and buying stuff from here ? ;)
On a serious note I don't think any amount of policing and rules by the moderators can make buyers transaction 100% risk free.

As I said you have to judge your tolerance level and be as nonchalant or meticulous to satisfy your needs.

Quote from: sydbarett on August 18, 2019, 09:52:21 AM

Quote from: VikramF on August 18, 2019, 12:42:17 AM
2. Again, ask the seller to post a wts post

Thanks a lot for your clarifications Vikram.

On point no.2, I suppose I didnt make myself clear. What I meant was the seller already has a WTS in place wherein he is requesting to contact via phone (and not responding to PMs). In effect he is expecting to get a call where his deliberate non-disclosures/supression of facts DONT get recorded (or are NOT admissible evidence even if they are recorded). Such cases are quite common. There are live cases where sellers have accepted a problem on whatsapp/call but are still not updating their WTS post about it ! For such cases of 'wilful withholding of info' should a member report to MOD or just post on the WTS thread ?

There is one more vital issue I would request confirmation on. This is from the sellers perspective. Is the FROWNS sticky limited to feedback about 'completed' transactions only or can feedback also be posted on attempted transactions that highlight the risk/mal practices resorted to by certain parties/lowballers ? I think such feedback would go a long way in minimising the scourge of lowballing/non-starter transactions.

Here, I would also like to say a thing or two about classification of issues as 'trivial'. The very first item I bought on JJMPF, I received the item without a mount cap (it was supposed to be included). When I got back to the seller (an experienced one) he stopped responding to my PMs. If it had been Nikon/Canon mount I could have got one easily from the local market for 100-150 bucks (though I dont see why I should be bearing this cost/time) but this one was alpha mount and I had a hard time getting the cap which I eventually managed to get for 200 bucks after considerable searching. This could have been a trivial issue to some, to me it certainly wasnt. I think the same goes for the extant issue of pixels too. I'm really surprised to see experienced photographers classifying low shutter speed as "specialised requirement" (why landscapists, astro guys, time-lapse guys, night photographers do it all the time especially those who use tripods). I might have been tempted to dismiss 3-4 sporadic pixels as a trivial issue but 24 pixels concentrated in a cluster (assuming the figure is correct, I have not verified the RAF files) - I'm not so sure. Whatever it is, its certainly NOT something to be inadvertently missed by an experienced photographer/editor. The other thing is - if this deal was that good and the pixel issue is that 'trivial', someone should have probably offered to take it from the buyer by now.

Quote from: camera crew on August 17, 2019, 03:24:22 PM
Dear Admin Bharat Varma,
I did read that NPAN Blog in Bhphotovideo.com. Thank you for sharing that.
I did Long exposure Noise reduction in camera just now, and took test pics. The problem persists.

This is not a "noise" but a defective pixel bunch. It can be dead/hot/stuck, whatever.
It is an array of 24 identifiable damaged pixels, 2 in 6 rows and rest 6 on either side of that.
No matter what we do, its a permanent damage. And I am telling this bcoz I have a bit of technical degrees and understanding of photosites and their working principles.

My point is, that one does not need to zoom into pixel peeping level, a mere 100% zoom in in any RAW processing software, be it Adobe Camera Raw, Lightroom, Capture One, will show this issue. I zoomed in detail, to find exactly how severe the damage is.

As the seller is an experienced photographer and technically well knowledged about photo editing too, such pixel damage could not have escaped his eyes while checking the pics prior to the Sale.

I would not have created this issue if the damaged pixels were spread over different parts of the image. Any new digital sensor could have it. Considering the XE1 camera age, and that it is a second hand buy, I could have been ok with it.
The concern is that is is clustered in one spot.


I also want to keep some clarifications about comments I read from other members.

Firstly, Long exposure Photography is not my special requirement, If I need to do that, I have a Fuji 50R and Phase one cameras to take care.

Secondly, those who have Pointed about GAS, I am sorry, I don't have that.
kindly see my queries to WTS in history, how much I comment on these posts.

Thirdly, yes I do believe second hand equipment will be not "brand new type".
But, there should be a disclosure of those defects atleast if in the sensor of a digital camera.
Here is my point. Mr. Parampreet is a senior member, an experienced photographer and photo editor. Its is very unlikely of him to miss such pixel defects.

Fourth, I did not need to zoom to 800% and pixel peep. A mere 100% zoom will be enough. I zoomed in to find the severity of the issue.

And lastly, I do not have buying remorse. I know this camera was a "killer deal" as pointed by a member, but then, on hindsight, I feel the Seller agreed at that price, bcoz, maybe he knew that it has defective pixels.




This was a deal that did not go through well. first time in my JJMPF history of about 8 years.
I am a JJMPF member when we did not even have such good resolution pics of items to be sold, no name, date, sl. number tags. People relied more on each others honest opinions. Even Phone nos, forget whatsapp, were not allowed on WTS posts.

I should have been more responsible to ask for more test pics before [snip]


If anyone really keen to understand/find/judge who is wrong, kindly take 10 RAF files, some before and couple after the Sale.

Thank you.
I have nothing more to say.

Mod Note:
This post was edited to bring it into compliance with RULE 23a (http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,55930.0.html).

Regarding the statement that these "defects" should have been visible to me at 100% magnification, I'm sharing few screenshots of the RAW files in question in Fuji's RAW Converter.

The first screenshot displays the long exposure shared by Mr. Prabal, which has the dead or stuck pixel. I've deliberately placed the mouse cursor below the dead/stuck pixel for reference purposes.
The remaining 6 screenshots show the images clicked by me before the sale. The mouse cursor has been placed at the same position on the images (the area with the dead/stuck pixel) to show how this "damaged" area appears on these images.

There are 3 areas highlighted in red in every screenshot:

• The highlighted portion on the top left corner shows the "Navigator" section of the software, which shows the thumbnail of the image with a selection box showing the area currently zoomed in and displayed on the screen. This is to show that the all images displayed are zoomed into the same area/portion.
• The highlighted portion on the bottom left shows the image magnification percentage (which is set to 100% in all images).
• The highlighted portion on the bottom right shows the X & Y axis position of the mouse cursor on the image. As can be seen, it is set to pixel position 0457 (width) x 2582 (height) in all images. This is to show that the mouse cursor is placed on the same position on all images, just below the area containing the dead/stuck pixel.

The long exposure image shared by Mr. Prabal, which has the dead or stuck pixel:
(https://qa2n8a.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mmfgH-VrFnOKDvPzPoXxONossxeHh3XERFj2eEszmT4DEIv8Funt0BMSdNk3fO_N8BrW0ik2HZ9XWxHTW4iN7WzzQBgOm13UDTFYMYHab8_a5Qvy4H90pAQv_KmX0b1d-fmp4xzIS3e0o6E8CgUfWiMkB3NoIDdsCyRI1mDQoQxauxfB4iz4nLOeM1cQtsbWVc-44_a8o-TrDvLJjF-tEwQ?width=1024&height=588&cropmode=none)

The other 6 images clicked by me prior to the sale (please note the area around the center of the frame just above the mouse cursor in all these images):

(https://qa3d2q.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mAGy3FrjsgfP5Z32Ok_LoasnQA928L_e18qOFtnMz7UU0w1cOzg_39BLR2dfuQSC4X1B7Ja1MLOof9zb40SHackIAfRZ8Mp-u10ggdkjmxhM6bkCddCU2RxX72dcy1VnoqVGAuj_S0l-ryy9jQJuCGaExYKt-avJ2HSmt51ctR2JgK9b9YEI9kwB9crtyXWP9qCIEJ9oX6QceWgYFn03VkQ?width=1024&height=588&cropmode=none)

(https://qa14tg.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mTdUIMMcOUTKSIvS_9fQrP6vfxCgAx56QLTp2sDQ0ybTECUL2Zojtwy1fdkJTYDbxKcoMv05--Fb_yQgopSIVFPuYQMgzkNUOjrYE8kfvbe2Je2dVn_KMWPsHArOYAhedfKlwa1YIJB75Q3DrsWqZbgV5ziFm5e4o7DiUwcG_Y37KIZjeSx3Z2L9gJjuvJfbH5zNBhOZbGDxVAreY2Xvwjw?width=1024&height=588&cropmode=none)

(https://qa0tww.dm.files.1drv.com/y4m7LB-UFEcnU1MPSwApkva0kWzsFx9Ctu2T_VQu8io4nOzEN7dfvU6Qvyl2l1S6S_pa6vG6HOVnC0UO4uRIV5VJw0Pahd8zDTmjcFki1rW92bl5VCK8Mt8MCmDaqdghV7qG9gd0hvg1zZzVZWbQ9LgIaPIvMroJ8MrYV0fL3oaZkkZepQavRui4QA3B4jvmc5J3OvLzG8M9sPGR9wsvKsySA?width=1024&height=588&cropmode=none)

(https://qa2unw.dm.files.1drv.com/y4m4libI188QlbO1F1sEslZV971x5zAKihkCm_sSeqeoFe20E6a6UsstmyHG4CgIj2qFkQnQ_6Qw2Z3bWv2qU_HEehIQAqvNvNJVdWHY5Z1ndHJsHlVMUViL7mUIi8EFekswY5eGadLWBbkip_WZl6uZBN3icFWZW54SqJGpIAiDTT1BFk1eJjh7zq41Cp_FbwvvtUTpfmDv3PLa257ZdjHzQ?width=1024&height=588&cropmode=none)

(https://qa3kia.dm.files.1drv.com/y4mokxa4J7Di2C4HzWCr7ku_ztCDz-1d4nGtnhvpb38_ggOYdXr6axI8VSPcfqGHTWcPcqcxmdil0y_8TN4G0Pp0viaZcymnLiLuxnTTeK36BuLbtuirVWBv2HDAh-ONUrEFfNU1Wl1NoGO13Zdvi-Cii3RHTeF4aR3WF3O1o0oWQ5R2Aj5RGKR29QGmEZD-v-M4ET-wSrT682qJaynhCl56g?width=1024&height=588&cropmode=none)

(https://qa1jra.dm.files.1drv.com/y4m9tl-1M0Nb6iy8X4yBdTi9EdG8mG8a7eJyYNm-p9jWef19AqiCu7UxMre9v3bBBjI48CvASJZ_jISZ08NB_HprQeDqyGFK-dq-QlFY1T4n3Z-h06sXXwxMoG7kM37YOhwfbPAPt5C7n-yv028wd43mU6KQd_-DrhEdAVAt8GzPSGYlor0hs1Sa-GNA7Y_fhRjJE3O_Nx2gHrL0MwxQ-hZ4w?width=1024&height=589&cropmode=none)

All these screenshots are available for download in larger sizes on the following link:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnCdvhrPSrGfghDoEjri-1wsdB52?e=DPh4cR

Furthermore, there's a difference between doing a post-facto analysis where we are actively looking for evidence of dead pixels compared to a general analysis of the image for acceptable sharpness.
I've owned and sold 6-7 cameras over the past few years, but haven't faced any issue of dead or stuck pixels even once. Hence, when I was looking at the images prior to the sale, I was only looking for signs of acceptable sharpness, which is the criteria most photographers would use to judge whether a camera and/or lens is working fine. I doubt many photographers scan images minutely for things like dead pixels whether during general photography or before posting something on sale.

Dear Admin Bharat Verma,

I have transferred five Fuji RAF files to the email id you sent via PM.
I have included the test pics with in camera 'long exposure noise reduction on' after you mentioned.

The transfer is done by large file sharing portal, Wetransfer.com
It will keep you a link in your email id, that is active for 7 days.

Kindly do the needful and also let me know if i need to do anything more on this issue.

thank you. Best.

I may not have had a good experience with Parampreet but this kind of scrutiny in a used camera is frightening to say the least.
If the buyer had such a usage scenario then definitely needs to be checked beforehand. Hobbyist like me hardly know our equipment this well.

On this context I would side with Parampreet though. Peace

Quote from: ayaskant12 on September 10, 2019, 08:50:03 AM
I may not have had a good experience with Parampreet but this kind of scrutiny in a used camera is frightening to say the least.
If the buyer had such a usage scenario then definitely needs to be checked beforehand. Hobbyist like me hardly know our equipment this well.

On this context I would side with Parampreet though. Peace

haha. why are you rehashing a conversation on this thread that has been sorted out?

The buyer talks about the issue being "an ARRAY of 24 identifiable damaged pixels."
Irrespective of whether or not his use is specific, he did have every right to raise this issue up with the seller.

This is not about who you side with. The buyer and seller (seem) to have sorted it out.
From what was mentioned in the thread, it seems like the seller paid for the repair eventually. (commendable)

Quote from: camera crew on August 18, 2019, 09:33:30 PM
Dear Admin Bharat Verma,

I have transferred five Fuji RAF files to the email id you sent via PM.
I have included the test pics with in camera 'long exposure noise reduction on' after you mentioned.

The transfer is done by large file sharing portal, Wetransfer.com
It will keep you a link in your email id, that is active for 7 days.

Kindly do the needful and also let me know if i need to do anything more on this issue.

thank you. Best.

I thought it's lingering.

Sorry my bad

I am awaiting for justified actions.
I have not heard back from the moderators inspite of sending RAF files through email.
The no. Of damaged pixels has increases upon using this camera. I did not do any slow shutter. Still, this is the scenerio.
How will this be solved ?

Sad to say but I think this should be a good learning exercise for you not to buy used camera equipment without thoroughly checking up on the item in question.

Hello,
In recent times Mr. Harish and Dr. Sriram has blamed me for being not a genuine buyer and lowballing.

1) I have contacted Harish ji for A7II for my friend but never confirmed that I will definitely buy the camera. I told that I will let him know. I'm trying to help him and also my friend. There is a not a profit of single penny for me. His relative was died and this is true. if anyone wants he can talk to my friend. I never confirmed harish ji for buying. If circumstances are not supporting for buying what can I do?

2) Regarding the Batis 85 lens and GS Ferrari I have done deal with him. I explained him what will I going to do to to collect the money. He has said that he will keep the Batis. But he has sold the lens without informing me. He can sell his lens to anybody, no issues. But where he agreed for keeping the lens he should inform me that he is going to sell the lens. Anyways the thread was closed after lots of arguments.

2) For Dr. Sriram, He had put a price for him camera and also I had put my budget. Where is the problem? No one asking for why he put a price tag for his camera, If I tell my budget that is 'lowballing' ? When a seller put his price on a item no one ask weather the price is justified or not. But if any buyer put his price in front of the seller that is 'lowballing' ?

"lowballing" is, I guess, offering an amount less than the seller considers the minimum. If that's what they think, it is what they think. No point in complaining about it.

Quote"lowballing" is, I guess, offering an amount less than the seller considers the minimum. If that's what they think, it is what they think. No point in complaining about it.

Agree. What is wrong with lowballing. Did one's ego get busted because someone asked for a lower price? As long as it's in PM it's fine. I always low ball coz you never know what the actual worth of that item is till you receive it in your hand and you may actually get a deal that works for both sides.

Secondly, when did any buyer post a price that is not inflated with room to negotiate :)

The only recommendation is to ask yourself if you would sell that item for that price. If so, please go ahead and lowball :)

Quote from: Tanumoy on October 03, 2020, 01:25:36 PM
Hello,
In recent times Mr. Harish and Dr. Sriram has blamed me for being not a genuine buyer and lowballing.

1) I have contacted Harish ji for A7II for my friend but never confirmed that I will definitely buy the camera. I told that I will let him know. I'm trying to help him and also my friend. There is a not a profit of single penny for me. His relative was died and this is true. if anyone wants he can talk to my friend. I never confirmed harish ji for buying. If circumstances are not supporting for buying what can I do?

2) Regarding the Batis 85 lens and GS Ferrari I have done deal with him. I explained him what will I going to do to to collect the money. He has said that he will keep the Batis. But he has sold the lens without informing me. He can sell his lens to anybody, no issues. But where he agreed for keeping the lens he should inform me that he is going to sell the lens. Anyways the thread was closed after lots of arguments.

2) For Dr. Sriram, He had put a price for him camera and also I had put my budget. Where is the problem? No one asking for why he put a price tag for his camera, If I tell my budget that is 'lowballing' ? When a seller put his price on a item no one ask weather the price is justified or not. But if any buyer put his price in front of the seller that is 'lowballing' ?

It seems that as long as you are not on the receiving end of someone else’s indecision / time-wasting then you are quite happy to indulge in the same. The moment someone ticks you off you rage on the forum about how you have been wronged when you yourself are quite happy to do the same thing.

I thought I would give this a wide berth but I have also heard from Madhav about his run-in with you and this seems to be your MO.

In the case of Dr. Harish you seem to be a half-hearted buyer. At best you wasted his time, worst case you led him to believe you were serious. Apparently your friend wasn’t as keen on the product as you thought. You wanted to help your friend.

In our interaction you felt I had wronged you by selling my lens to a friend of mine. My friend took the lens to test it out and decided he didn’t want to give it back and paid me 5/6K less than what number we had discussed. I called you soon after to inform you of the sale. So I am not allowed to satisfy my friend’s desires but you are allowed to mislead another forum member because your friend changed his mind?

Do you see the hypocrisy here?

I will let Madhav get into the details of how you handled the transaction with him.

In a nutshell, you are happy to inconvenience others but they aren’t allowed to do the same to you no matter what their reason might be.

Quote from: Tanumoy on October 03, 2020, 01:25:36 PM
Hello,
In recent times Mr. Harish and Dr. Sriram has blamed me for being not a genuine buyer and lowballing.

1) I have contacted Harish ji for A7II for my friend but never confirmed that I will definitely buy the camera. I told that I will let him know. I'm trying to help him and also my friend. There is a not a profit of single penny for me. His relative was died and this is true. if anyone wants he can talk to my friend. I never confirmed harish ji for buying. If circumstances are not supporting for buying what can I do?

2) Regarding the Batis 85 lens and GS Ferrari I have done deal with him. I explained him what will I going to do to to collect the money. He has said that he will keep the Batis. But he has sold the lens without informing me. He can sell his lens to anybody, no issues. But where he agreed for keeping the lens he should inform me that he is going to sell the lens. Anyways the thread was closed after lots of arguments.

2) For Dr. Sriram, He had put a price for him camera and also I had put my budget. Where is the problem? No one asking for why he put a price tag for his camera, If I tell my budget that is 'lowballing' ? When a seller put his price on a item no one ask weather the price is justified or not. But if any buyer put his price in front of the seller that is 'lowballing' ?

Well, lowballing isn't an out right crime by any means but my sale hasn't mentioned 'negotiable' and followed all the rules of the forum. I am very confident of my selling price and I indeed sold it for the same price to a gentleman in Hyderabad. Anyway, good luck with your lowballing tactics for your future purchases. Best wishes.

Quote from: justaday on December 23, 2020, 02:29:19 PM
The only recommendation is to ask yourself if you would sell that item for that price. If so, please go ahead and lowball :)

That is probably the best yardstick for setting prices/making offers. A seller to list at prices close to what he would buy at and a buyer to offer price close to what he'd sell for. However, its not only about prices. Its easy to ignore whatever qualifies as lowballing according to you. Bigger problem is the "time wasting" and "opportunity wasting" that typically accompanies such cases. Buyer going the whole hog and agreeing for a sale only to develop cold feet after 3 days means that other genuine opportunities get squandered in the meantime. In my book that is a far serious offense and very difficult to deal with. I can choose not to deal with the person again (which I invariably do) but unfortunately I might still be left with unsold item despite multiple "expressions of interest".

Quote from: justaday on December 23, 2020, 02:29:19 PM
As long as it's in PM it's fine.

I would say its the other way round. A PM/whatsapp (without EOI on sale thread), is widely abused as an irrevocable warrant by serial lowballers/timewasters to indulge themselves to their hearts content. Snug in the belief that they aren't exposed. Funny thing is "price talk" is discouraged on sale threads to protect sellers' interest while it ironically ends up doing quite the opposite !

QuoteBuyer going the whole hog and agreeing for a sale only to develop cold feet after 3 days means that other genuine opportunities get squandered in the meantime.

This is strangely the same case discussed by gsferrari. Unless paid it's not sold and it's available for someone who is ready to pay. If  I have to book something, I pay for it. Not say "Book for me".  Let us first understand that there is no concept of blocking an item until the buyer decides to transfer money. As a seller, there are various reasons to sell and to me, a sale is done only after the payment.

I encourage parallel sales all the time but keep them informed that whoever pays first will get the item. Hard luck to the one who haggled, negotiated, and agreed but never paid vs the next person who basically paid and moved on with the sale.

We have been sellers and we have been buyers. The rules are exactly the same. Will you sell an item to someone who promised to buy but not paying or will you sell it to someone who is ready to pay? As a buyer will you wait for the seller to keep holding the item for a promise you made while you have not made payment? or do you think you deserve to get the item only after you transfer the money?

Never hold an item for a promise via PM or message. It makes no logical sense. Sell to the one who pays and closes the deal. But thats my way of dealing. And I agreed that I haggle, atleast if we agree I pay in few minutes and move on.

Quote from: justaday on January 05, 2021, 09:45:53 AM
This is strangely the same case discussed by gsferrari. Unless paid it's not sold and it's available for someone who is ready to pay. If  I have to book something, I pay for it. Not say "Book for me".  Let us first understand that there is no concept of blocking an item until the buyer decides to transfer money. As a seller, there are various reasons to sell and to me, a sale is done only after the payment.

I encourage parallel sales all the time but keep them informed that whoever pays first will get the item. Hard luck to the one who haggled, negotiated, and agreed but never paid vs the next person who basically paid and moved on with the sale.

We have been sellers and we have been buyers. The rules are exactly the same. Will you sell an item to someone who promised to buy but not paying or will you sell it to someone who is ready to pay? As a buyer will you wait for the seller to keep holding the item for a promise you made while you have not made payment? or do you think you deserve to get the item only after you transfer the money?

Never hold an item for a promise via PM or message. It makes no logical sense. Sell to the one who pays and closes the deal. But thats my way of dealing. And I agreed that I haggle, atleast if we agree I pay in few minutes and move on.

I agree, but this is quite subjective I believe. People use the word "book" or "hold" very loosely. When I ask someone to book/hold an item for me, it means that I'm ready to pay and just want to make sure it's in the same condition as described, or want to discuss delivery etc. It makes no sense to "book" and then haggle. I've had one particular buyer on this forum "book" an item from me, negotiate price and decide on a meeting place to then say that he isn't interested anymore. I may have declined other offers thinking that this specific person is about to buy it, even if those offers were higher. It's happened twice with the same person for me, so I have made it a point not to sell to that person. On the other hand, if someone just asks for the price and says they'll let you know, that is quite fair as it keeps you open for other offers.

Agree Pratik. Ultimately I am just saying the seller can sell to whoever he wants to and no amount of hold it or block it should make the buyers assume he is at the top of the queue. The seller obviously cannot get money and sell to someone else :). If I need it that badly, I take the decision with associated risk and buy it.

Lately few posts I have seen here include dead pixels and whatnot. Once I buy, there ends the liability of the seller. That is the fundamental risk of buying "not in person". Everything else and every other argument after that to me is Moot. Once it's paid and the item is at one doorstep, "the one" owns every liability of that intelligent or stupid decision "the one" has made. (trying hard to make it generic so people don't get offended)

The day this forum provides certification, insurance, and liability coverage is when the forum can be held remotely responsible for any actions. Till then, one has to evaluate between intelligence or stupidity in decision making while buying.

Quote from: justaday on January 05, 2021, 11:44:55 AM
Agree Pratik. Ultimately I am just saying the seller can sell to whoever he wants to and no amount of hold it or block it should make the buyers assume he is at the top of the queue. The seller obviously cannot get money and sell to someone else :). If I need it that badly, I take the decision with associated risk and buy it.

Lately few posts I have seen here include dead pixels and whatnot. Once I buy, there ends the liability of the seller. That is the fundamental risk of buying "not in person". Everything else and every other argument after that to me is Moot. Once it's paid and the item is at one doorstep, "the one" owns every liability of that intelligent or stupid decision "the one" has made. (trying hard to make it generic so people don't get offended)

The day this forum provides certification, insurance, and liability coverage is when the forum can be held remotely responsible for any actions. Till then, one has to evaluate between intelligence or stupidity in decision making while buying.

Very well put, I completely agree.

Quote from: justaday on January 05, 2021, 09:45:53 AM
This is strangely the same case discussed by gsferrari.

Thats precisely what I meant. Such cases (like gsferrari) have become more a norm than an exception. Which is what makes the situation alarming. On one occasion I had three non-payers within a day or two. Many a times this happens when the buyer wants to armtwist you into selling at lower prices or heck even cry "for God's take it for free but please take it....!" out of exasperation. I guess, for many this is an integral part of what they would like to think of as "negotiation" tactics.

And since there is no "frowning" for non-payers/retractors, I often find meself being forced into curt behaviour with buyers who might not have the intention of not paying. Really unfortunate :(

Quote from: Pratik on January 05, 2021, 10:50:34 AM
People use the word "book" or "hold" very loosely. When I ask someone to book/hold an item for me, it means that I'm ready to pay and just want to make sure it's in the same condition as described, or want to discuss delivery etc. It makes no sense to "book" and then haggle.

Precisely. You cant ask someone to "hold" it for you and then research on the item. Only to find that you dont want to buy it ! Holding/booking means that it is 90% sold barring a mishap. Really tired of this holding/booking business. Probably need to incorporate it in the special section in my sale threads. Not that it'd make any difference. People will still request for holding/booking ! But at least I'll be clear from my side.

Had another instance where a member closed the deal and delayed the payment without any communication. I went ahead and sold the item to someone who had reached out to me AFTER the first offer so I had them wait. Once the first buyer didn't seem to want to pay OR update me on what was going on, I went ahead and sold the item to the next-in-line. I am not obligated to update the member who made the first offer but I did so out of courtesy, something that seems to be in short supply these days.

I don't mind the low-balling. I don't mind the delays. I don't mind the indecision.

Just DON'T do this on my time. Don't make me wait, keep me guessing after closing the deal. It is inconsiderate, unprofessional and highly annoying.

I am not going to name any names at this point because, frankly, it makes no difference. This problem is systemic. Besides I am not aware if this individual had any medical emergencies so I will not bring in any names.

Moving forward I will also be ruthless with those who delay and generally waste my time without proper courtesy.

To All JJMF members ,   (Matter resolved amicably.)

This is a feedback for a senior member of this forum Mr. Sumanta Chandra .
After much frustration I decided to make this public to members here . In short  it's been close to 50 days since I made the payment for Contax G 35 mm F2 lens but yet to get hold of it . The sequence of events are as followed .

1. I was looking for Contax G 21 mm F2.8 lens urgently and was unable to find one .
2. In the mean time Sumanta Chandra  offered a Contax 35 mm F2 in  Excellent+++ condition.
3. 6th June  - I transferred the Money .
4. 9th June  - Mr. Kher offered me his 21 mm f2.8 . Same day I transferred money to Mr. Kher and same day evening he dispatched the lend which I received on 11th June . I would take this opportunity to thank Mr. Kher for closing the deal quick .
5. 16th June -  after much follow up Sumanta dispatched the lens . I realized later that the lens was sent to service center after getting money ..and hence the delay .
6.  18th June - I received the lens and found it having serious mounting issues . I was not able to mount to either of my G2 & G1 unless manually  setting the aperture to F8 . For all other lenses I have 21 , 28 , 45 & 90 mm  - I found this aperture locking is automatically done while unmounting from the body which was not working in 35 mm . He asked me to send him back the lens so that he can get it fixed .
7. 22nd June  - I couriered him back the lens . Since then he makes a new story each time I ask him for update .
8. 22nd July   - After one month being frustrated I wanted to repurpose the fund for buying an oscilloscope , hence requested him to refund my money for the time being and once the lens is returned from the service center fixing the aperture problem - shall pay once again and he can send it back to me . He agreed to transfer the money and I am waiting to repurpose it .

I have noticed him using this forum to sell gears ..hence thought it will be beneficial for the members to be aware of this incident before striking any deal with Mr. Sumanta Chandra who lives in Mumbai now. While he was in Bangalore , we met many times having chat on various subjects . This was really a precarious situation for me and I was in a dilemma to tell all about . You can understand the level of frustration .. it's almost begging for my money lying with him .

subsequent updates :  
9. 26th July - 72+ hours passed. In the meantime I tried to contact but failed to do so and there is no update . I wish the story ends this week.
10 . 2nd August - I have received the lens and matter has been settled amicably . I would like to thank Sumanta for showing real good intention to resolve the matter quickly last week .


Note : These two updates were posted earlier but probably not being noticed by all - so I have moved them below the original post written on 24th July .

Hello all admins and members

I hereby raise a complaint for faulty camera sold on our forum. below was the link for the same.

https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,64774.0.html

i purchased this camera from the seller. as mentioned in the ad itself camera has some issue while doing menu settings. to which i had agreed.
i specifically asked him if there is any issue when i comes to shooting. he with 100 percent clarity said there is no problem.

upon receiving camera when i checked, shutter speed was not changing. that's a direct and serious problem while it comes to shooting.
i asked him about it and he said yes if you have to change shutter speed, switch camera to shutter priority mode , change shutter speed and come back to m mode.
this is most ridiculous answer i ever heard.

as he said that , he definitely knew the problem beforehand and still decided to deliberately hide it.
now once i purchased camera i purchased an adaptor from delhi based dealer to use pentax lens. there is no purpose of the adaptor now as camera is faulty.

seller here is offering to pay back for camera , but what about the investment i had to do because of his fault.
i hereby propose that seller pay for cam ( which he already did ), adaptor and shipping.

Pls guide us through

Warm regards
Vinay

Hi Vinay

Since you have posted this towards all the admins and members, as a member I would like to comment. But everyone including you has all the rights to differ.

First of all, if all the sentences are correct, then Harish was deliberately hiding the fact. The shutter was not working in the manual mode. Now since Harish has agreed to pay the refund amount, he acknowledges his mistake. But as you know when we purchase a camera, lens etc we keep a lot of hope and excitement in our mind. When things turn out ugly we really become very much disappointed. So it's a very costly mistake and could have been avoided at the very first place.

Now coming to the adapter part, did you inform Harish that you are going to purchase an adapter to mount your pentax lenses and did he confirm you to go ahead? If yes, Harish bears the moral responsibility, whether he should purchase it from you or not it's up to him. But definitely he bears the responsibility. But if you didn't mention about the adapter to Harish while purchasing the camera, he shouldn't be held accountable. Instead of the simple adapter, suppose if you would have purchased a highly expensive lens what would you do? Would you tell Harish to purchase it from you as well? You should have waited for the camera to arrive and then order the adapter etc.

Third point - shipping. Suppose Harish is located in the same city, but far away. So you came to his home to check the camera and found it's faulty. Would you ask Harish to pay for your car's fuel charges and also compensate for the wasted time? When you are purchasing something online there is always a risk involved, but I feel getting everything at home through the courier companies, checking the camera at home is much more convenient than travelling far away through the traffic jam. So think of return shipping is just like your fuel charges.

I personally know neither you nor Harish, never ever had any transaction with either of you. So I tried to be totally neutral. But obviously in the future if Harish puts anything for sale and looks attractive, even then I will avoid them. Refunding the money is really good, but it doesn't undo the all the troublesome.

Hello all admins and members,

I have already refunded the amount for the camera to this person (UPI screenshot is attached). The maximum I can do is to accept the camera return. I have not sold any adapter to him. He has not informed me about buying an adapter for the camera (I have the full previous chat history with me). So, there is no point to argue for that.

I have been using the camera in my studio for mugshots in Manual mode with Elinchrome Lights till the date of selling. So there is nothing to hide anything.

Hi Nirmalya
thanks a lot for looking in to this.

yes i didnt inform him about adaptor. but first thing first besides me asking if any issue is there in shooting, he deliberately hide the info. so i ordered adaptor considering its working condition. if he had motioned the problem and not hidden it , i would not have spent on adaptor.  And if this was a mistake i would have made some adjustments, but the fact that he knew the problem and didnt tell me is serious.

secondly, if seller is saying it has no issues in working, there is no reason why i would wait to order adaptor. I think that itself suggests that info given by seller cant be trustworthy.
which is not good for forums dignity.

Third point you mentioned is about shipping charges. firstly its hypothetical situation we are talking. if we was from same city. the thing that happened didnt happen under that situation. if problem was from my side i would have paid for shipping both ways.

Its a straight case of hiding info thus should be dealt accordingly.

i appreciate your effort to give solution.

thanks
vinay

@harish
so you are saying u did not say that camera does not have any issues in working ?

i also have all the chat history. i ask u specifically about any issues in working and u said none.
i am not settling for camera refund. you deliberately hide the info so face the facts.

Vinay

(https://i.imgur.com/WwyyM9S.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/YGziaND.jpg)

QuoteItem Condition: Still takes good pictures, the back wheel only has problem. That moves unnecessarily while going through the Menu or Playback. Cosmetic 6/10.

This statement was made quite clearly. What did you understand from it? Did you ask for details?
Sounds like the wheel operation was erratic, and obviously that would apply to anything done using that wheel, including changing shutter speeds if that was done with using this wheel.


I also don't think anything was deliberately "hidden".
Maybe the language and the description could have been more descriptive or explicit, but then it is also the buyer's responsibility to check in detail on any issues that have been mentioned in the WTS post.


I think refunding the cost of the camera was a reasonable response that should settle the matter.

Quote from: nirmalya on October 14, 2022, 06:17:22 PM
Hi Vinay

Since you have posted this towards all the admins and members, as a member I would like to comment. But everyone including you has all the rights to differ.

First of all, if all the sentences are correct, then Harish was deliberately hiding the fact. The shutter was not working in the manual mode. Now since Harish has agreed to pay the refund amount, he acknowledges his mistake. But as you know when we purchase a camera, lens etc we keep a lot of hope and excitement in our mind. When things turn out ugly we really become very much disappointed. So it's a very costly mistake and could have been avoided at the very first place.

Now coming to the adapter part, did you inform Harish that you are going to purchase an adapter to mount your pentax lenses and did he confirm you to go ahead? If yes, Harish bears the moral responsibility, whether he should purchase it from you or not it's up to him. But definitely he bears the responsibility. But if you didn't mention about the adapter to Harish while purchasing the camera, he shouldn't be held accountable. Instead of the simple adapter, suppose if you would have purchased a highly expensive lens what would you do? Would you tell Harish to purchase it from you as well? You should have waited for the camera to arrive and then order the adapter etc.

Third point - shipping. Suppose Harish is located in the same city, but far away. So you came to his home to check the camera and found it's faulty. Would you ask Harish to pay for your car's fuel charges and also compensate for the wasted time? When you are purchasing something online there is always a risk involved, but I feel getting everything at home through the courier companies, checking the camera at home is much more convenient than travelling far away through the traffic jam. So think of return shipping is just like your fuel charges.

I personally know neither you nor Harish, never ever had any transaction with either of you. So I tried to be totally neutral. But obviously in the future if Harish puts anything for sale and looks attractive, even then I will avoid them. Refunding the money is really good, but it doesn't undo the all the troublesome.

+1 My thoughts precisely. Certainly a case for full refund. Nothing more.

Its like buying a mobile and simultaneously ordering a backcover to go with it. If the mobile is returned for some valid reason, doesnt mean the cover should be returned (even if it can be) or charged to the mobile seller. Its the cost one pays for preempting loss of time.

The point on shipping/local meetup is very valid too. Not at all a hypothetical situation. Happens all the time. Nowadays in metros/large cities, traveling cost is often more than the cost of courier, to say nothing of the lost time. Reminds me of a case when a local forum member offered to buy a 750 rupee worth filter at a 'discounted' rate of 650. We agreed to meet at a mutually convenient point and when I was 3/4ths the distance I got a call from this guy asking me to reduce the price further (by a whopping 50 rupees !). That is the kinda absolute disregard some will have for other people's time and money !

yes i specifically asked if any issues are there while shooting. he said no. its while changing menu only
and when i got camera he said shutter can be changed in shutter priority only.

isnt that hiding >? seriously ?

ya its hipothetical cause it didnt happen in this case. we are trying to apply various possible situations. compare here . which is not right way cause that did not happen. what happened is happened and shown in my screenshots.

Refunding amount is not fare. he was just tyring to see if i miss the problem when i receive and camera gets sold.

my screenshots clearly show 2 different responses on working condition by seller.

Item Condition: Still takes good pictures, the back wheel only has problem. That moves unnecessarily while going through the Menu or Playback. Cosmetic 6/10.

yes statements tell me back wheel has problem while operating menu. to clarify more i clearly asked him if there is issue when shooting. that was for this sentence only.

obviously that would apply to anything done using that wheel, including changing shutter speeds if that was done with using this wheel.

no , cause he said it does not hv any other prob than menu

Quotesorry for so many replies.

in second ss he states its not the prob of back wheel . do u see the mismatch in explanation

obviously that would apply to anything done using that wheel, including changing shutter speeds if that was done with using this wheel.

1. Yes, it wasn't clear what he meant by this.

2. As far as this is concerned, I think it's a communication problem. Technically, changing shutter speed is changing a menu setting, while shooting is the actual act of pressing a button and taking a shot. I would certainly expect a malfunctioning wheel to affect everything that it was supposed to control, and that unfortunately doesn't seem to have occurred to you to explicitly clarify or to the seller to highlight.

Quote from: vinay_pune on October 14, 2022, 07:24:44 PM
yes i specifically asked if any issues are there while shooting. he said no. its while changing menu only
and when i got camera he said shutter can be changed in shutter priority only.

isnt that hiding >? seriously ?

I think that no blame needs to be attached to either buyer or seller.
I also think a full refund covers everything that needs to be covered.

I'm sorry, I seem to have edited your reply accidentally while making mine.

I can't revert to the original message. I hope the intent of the communication is still clear.

As far as this is concerned, I think it's a communication problem. Technically, changing shutter speed is changing a menu setting, while shooting is the actual act of pressing a button and taking a shot. I would certainly expect a malfunctioning wheel to affect everything that it was supposed to control, and that unfortunately doesn't seem to have occurred to you to explicitly clarify or to the seller to highlight.

wow.
changing shutter speed is changing menu setting (then why is there a separate dial for it on cam,which in  this case not working?oh and shooting is an act of pressing button (damn).
we are only speaking technically, not about intent. that's the issue. there is no communication problem from my side. as u can see in screen shot i clearly asked him.

unfortunate is , i asked him if there is any problem shooting. he said no. and when i got he suggests go to shutter priority mode, change the shutter , come back to m and shoot. like the moment is going to wait for me to do all that settings.

I am highly disheartened by the responses. when its crystal clear that he changed his explanation. 

As i said ,i am not going to settle with fully refund only.
He told me that there is not prob working. based on which i purchased adaptor. i can show adaptor person chat also to authenticate that its purchased for nex 6.

now cam refund can be done. what am i going to do with adaptor.

its not my mistake and seller needs to take moral responsibility.
but i wont settle for body refund. he needs to take adaptor and pay for shipping.

With due respect to all the admins and users who messaged here to try and settle the issue. many thanks to them but
i am very long time member of this forum. sold lots of things here. only one incident happened when cam i sold got affected in shipping. besides mentioning shipping at buyers cost and risk i transferred him 3000 rs for repairs.

now i am not taking loss for others actions. If my terms not agreed i am ok with whatever decision admins take on my stand.

all the best.

Which dial is this?
The one that he mentioned had a problem, or a separate one?

Quote from: vinay_pune on October 14, 2022, 08:13:58 PM
As far as this is concerned, I think it's a communication problem. Technically, changing shutter speed is changing a menu setting, while shooting is the actual act of pressing a button and taking a shot. I would certainly expect a malfunctioning wheel to affect everything that it was supposed to control, and that unfortunately doesn't seem to have occurred to you to explicitly clarify or to the seller to highlight.

wow.
changing shutter speed is changing menu setting (then why is there a separate dial for it on cam,which in  this case not working?oh and shooting is an act of pressing button (damn).
we are only speaking technically, not about intent. that's the issue. there is no communication problem from my side. as u can see in screen shot i clearly asked him.

unfortunate is , i asked him if there is any problem shooting. he said no. and when i got he suggests go to shutter priority mode, change the shutter , come back to m and shoot. like the moment is going to wait for me to do all that settings.

I am highly disheartened by the responses. when its crystal clear that he changed his explanation.

same dial mentioned as prob in setting menu.

what we do to shoot a picture is set aperture, shutter speeds through dials. so thats part of shooting. and dial does not change shutter speed. which he later agreed.
again i very clearly asked him that, he said no prob in shooting. shutter dial not working is not a shooting prob and if we are only going to speak technically, then there are problems.

Now, you have both the camera & the money and you are not ready to settle the issue also. Admins please note this too. Members also beware of this person.

Beware of me ? i have not given half or wrong information. i didnt ask u to send the money. u did it without my concent. do u accept that u hide the info of dial not working for shooting purpose ? no.

and beware of me >?

(https://i.imgur.com/RYxdfFq.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lHBoDNF.jpg)

who told u to transfer till the matter is resolved ?

The seller has refunded you the full amount.
The matter is resolved.

Please return the camera to the seller.

sorry not doing it. matter is not resolved for me.
its a clear case of hiding info. i cant waste my money on an adaptor i bought for a camera which was supposed to work but didnt.
you are free to take any action.

its very sad that no questions asked why he didnt tell it when asked. is it too hard to see that he cheated.

(https://i.imgur.com/mLYap0R.jpg)

can u tell me what am i supposed to with this adaptor now

Quote from: vinay_pune on October 14, 2022, 09:41:18 PM
sorry not doing it. matter is not resolved for me.
its a clear case of hiding info. i cant waste my money on an adaptor i bought for a camera which was supposed to work but didnt.
you are free to take any action.

its very sad that no questions asked why he didnt tell it when asked. is it too hard to see that he cheated.

Your question has been answered enough times.
No, he did not cheat.

He said clearly that there was a problem with the dial, and you didn't ask the right questions.
It was simply carelessness on your part plus bad communication on his.

Stop replying for now please. Please cool down, sleep over it and think about it tomorrow.

i clearly asked him if there is any issue with shooting to which he said no.

is that not a problem ?

I dont want to keep replying. i wont rest my side. as he has done wrong.

only deal i will offer is , he refunded for camera. he needs to pay for adaptor 1300 rs and 180 for shipping.

not taking any other deal.

my hard earned money is not to be wasted due someones negligence .

i hope this wont happen to any of you in future. or ur approach will be different for sure.

now i wont discuss. decision in your hand.

Another third party comment...

You were dissatisfied and you got your money back. Incidental expenses are never included in such a deal.

It would be nice if the seller pays the return courier. Don't see that you can ask more.

thanks , i can ask cause hi hide the information after asking also. i am not wasting my money due to his acts.

Can't hold myself to express my opinion . It's unfair to ask the seller to pay for the adapter .
People defaulted usually gets the item and refunds the money if at all agreed to take it back. It's nothing less than blackmailing him keeping  both the camera and refunded money  - it's a new standard being set for the buyers whether Good or Bad can not comment but definitely will change the way people transact in this forum .

sorry first thing i am not holding cam and money. i had told him that i will raise a complaint and lets see there. he hurriedly transferred amount .
secondly why no one is asking why didnt he tell the truth when he knew it.

blackmailing is very harsh word. i think you should be very careful with it.

anyone once asking him that why did not he tell me about the issue after even i asked it  ?

I have again transffered him cam amount.
now can someone ask him why he did not tell the truth when he knew that dials prob was not only related to menu settings ?

I have owned this camera and it (the entire NEX series) really is the worst example one can come up with as regards the menu and controls. On this camera, the rear wheel controls the changes in aperture/shutter speed depending on the mode the camera is in. Its understood that this wheel is what is having problem in this case. Now there is another dial under the mode dial. Its easy for a prospective buyer to be tempted into thinking that he will be able to 'make do' with this dial. However this 'top' dial is useless and cannot be configured to change shutter speed far as my memory goes.

Quote from: vinay_pune on October 15, 2022, 10:12:10 AM
I have again transffered him cam amount.
now can someone ask him why he did not tell the truth when he knew that dials prob was not only related to menu settings ?

There are two separate issues here.

Issue 1 (Full Refund) - I suppose most of us will agree about the full refund part, regardless of whether its considered as a case of seller misguidance or lack of sufficient due diligence by the buyer. The point whether the seller's explanation is changed or not becomes moot since the full refund is already granted and any hairsplitting after this might actually be counterproductive.

Issue 2 (Compensation for adapter) - This is where many of us might disagree with the claim for reasons explained above. IMO the seller bears no liability whatsoever beyond full refund whether its the cost of the adapter or resultant loss of photographic/business opportunities or anything else. NO amount of debating is going to change this. Its only going to make the argument more ludicrous every time it is repeated.

You have requested the Mods for Moderation and they have already opined on the matter. You have indicated you will be "ok with whatever decision admins take on my stand". Its now high time for you to do so.

Cause if this continues to progress the way it is going, I'm not sure who'll end up suffering a bigger dent, the seller or the buyer.

Quote from: Bharat Varma on October 14, 2022, 09:38:16 PM
The seller has refunded you the full amount.
The matter is resolved.

Please return the camera to the seller.

I agree. How much would the adapter cost you? Is it high enough to ruin your reputation on the forum? Why fight it? Return the camera and be done with the matter.

Top dial does change shutter speed in shutter priority mode in the Nex 6.

====================
The PASM dial sits on top of another dial, which is used to change other relevant camera settings. For example, if you switch to Aperture Priority mode with the PASM dial, the bottom dial is used for changing the aperture. In Shutter Priority mode, it is used to change the shutter speed. And in manual mode, you can use this dial, along with the dial on the back of the camera to change both aperture and shutter speed
====================

https://photographylife.com/reviews/sony-nex-6/2

Quote from: Krish Chandran on October 15, 2022, 11:36:59 AM

Quote from: Bharat Varma on October 14, 2022, 09:38:16 PM
The seller has refunded you the full amount.
The matter is resolved.

Please return the camera to the seller.

I agree. How much would the adapter cost you? Is it high enough to ruin your reputation on the forum? Why fight it? Return the camera and be done with the matter.

I concur. Sometimes impulse purchases turn out to be mistimed - like the adapter. Always advisable to check the newly acquired gear first and then get accessories. I'm sure everybody has faced this with online purchases. I'm sure there will be buyers for the adapter on the forum, if you decide no longer to go ahead with the purchase of another Sony camera.

One solution to avoiding unlimited consequential liability claims would be to include limitation of liability language in WTS post templates . Sellers should also specify under what conditions they'll accept returns, which should be reciprocated by the buyers by taking good care of the item to be returned.

I have transferred amount to seller again.

is it ok to hide information after asking also ? anybody going to comment on that ?

i have put up a simple question and no body is addressing it.

this is how are we going to deal in future. like seller sells anything, and if caught with defective equipment just pays back gets name cleared.

Quote from: vinay_pune on October 15, 2022, 12:17:58 PM
I have transferred amount to seller again.

is it ok to hide information after asking also ? anybody going to comment on that ?

i have put up a simple question and no body is addressing it.

this is how are we going to deal in future. like seller sells anything, and if caught with defective equipment just pays back gets name cleared.

The two issues here are A- the completeness of the information provided by the seller - to the best of your understanding, and B - his willingness to promptly refund the amount in case of a dispute.

If there is a failure in the A part, then as a buyer, I would expect B to be fulfilled without argument. 

Here he (the seller) refunded you promptly. From that point on, there was no issue.

Your purchase of, and subsequent liability for,  the adapter, has no bearing on this transaction. This was an action conducted outside your negotiation with the seller. You can't now hold him responsible because you are out of pocket.

I don't mean to be harsh with you, but this is how it is. The best course of action is to accept it and move on.

1. The matter is settled.
2. No fault is ascribed to either seller or buyer.
3. Please note that redundant posts on this issue will now be removed.

Dear Admins and All members,

I came across this post "https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,66182.msg493012.html#msg493012" where id: alphahead (Mr. Bhaskar Rao) was selling Sony 2x Teleconverter. I contacted him on mentioned mobile number and he mentioned that this teleconverter is in Excellent condition and only two times used in past 4 years. It is like new only very minor one scratch mark on the body. Then I bought this item from him after making agreed payment.

When I received the teleconverter, found that teleconverter was dropped and having two dents on the mount. The mounting / unmounting button paint is chip off from all sides and it is impossible that this product is used only two times. I bought it due to his assurance that the product is like new only and only 2 times used. Please refer to the attached two pictures.

Once received, I immediately notified him with pictures, but he has refused to take back the teleconverter and return the money.

Pls do not buy anything from this person. He is not a genuine person.

Moderators requesting you to take suitable action and all members please be cautious.


Thanks,

Nitin Goel

Quote from: Nitin Goel on May 29, 2023, 10:05:23 PM

I came across this post "https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,66182.msg493012.html#msg493012" where id: alphahead (Mr. Bhaskar Rao) was selling Sony 2x Teleconverter.

The scuffed paint on the mount button can just be seen in the pics on his post. I'm afraid it does look as it he positioned the item so it was not properly shown.

This is feedback in respect of Mr Sudhir Damerla (id - sudhirdamerla - https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=51788)

THE TRANSACTION - The buyer purchased the Manfrotto Gimbal MVG220 listed here :- https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,66495.0.html

THE FACTS - Buyer contacted me on June 05 indicating the requirement for fast shipping so that he could use it for a shoot on June 08. I replied saying I could ship same day via DTDC (if payment is cleared before 4PM) for additional cost with June 7 as tentative delivery date. I told him I was willing to bear the balance cost of DTDC shipping if he could bear 100 bucks extra to which he agreed. These messages were being exchanged around 12 and Buyer finally made payment of 16.25K @ 4PM (after reminder) and wrote back requesting item to be shipped via DTDC blue if possible. He told me he was willing to bear the difference between DTDC Lite and Blue if I could ship via Blue (next day delivery). I said I'll try since it was already getting late for the "blue" cut-off.

The packed item weighed over 2.5 kgs and DTDC quoted a figure of 520 for DTDC Lite shipping and ~1700-1800 for DTDC Blue (using volumetric weight method instead of the actual weight). The Blue prices were downright obnoxious and so I quickly booked via "Lite". I paid the amount of 520/- and informed him of the total cost and tracking details as also requesting him to pay the shipping balance. He replied back saying he'd do so "in a bit". The item was eventually delivered on June 07 to his satisfaction.

THE ISSUE - I have sent him a number of reminders for payment of the balance shipping fee but up till the time of this post, he has neither paid the same nor responded on the topic after the initial message saying he would do so in a bit.

This is NOT the first time I have had hardball played over 50-100 rupees (I reported one such incident here :- https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,5808.msg488248.html#msg488248 ) and I'm sure it wont be the last. But I do find this rather disturbing and a sign of deep-rooted malaise. If you cant trust someone to keep his word for 100-200 bucks, you cant trust him for anything.

INTERVENTION SOUGHT - NONE. This is just feedback.

I have never cared for $1-$2 "negotiations" and I'm not going to start now. For my part I will NOT be having any transactions with him in future. Readers may want to exercise caution and ensure full payment is received before shipping out any item. In this case and in others.

Thank You !

I am not sure why this buyer is so aggrieved other than the fact that he thinks he overpaid or didn't do his HW before buying in a hurry.

Every single imperfection the buyer mentions on the TC is clearly visible in the photos in the ad that alone is enough to absolve me, its concrete proof. On the phone conversation, he seemed in a great hurry to get the TC, and I told him about the imperfections again, and sent him more two more fresh pictures of the flaws. So how am I in the wrong, I went above and beyond in my duty as a seller.

I have used this TC only in two birding trips and since then for a few years its been lying in my closet, which is buyer is free not to believe but that is the truth.

And finally to be honest even though I don't feel in anyway I have mislead the buyer in anyway but still if this buyer had been more pleasant in his dealings and had not recorded our phone conversations without my permission (which according to Indian laws is an illegal activity), I would have done him the favour of refunding the TC.

I am not here to make money or fool anyone and this is just a hobby. It is my first time selling something here and it is my misfortune to have sold to a buyer like this guy.

Moderators, please take down this frown post, it is just unnecessary and unfair personal attack from a careless buyer.

FINALLY as a new member here I have a suggestion to the moderators of a forum, please define an objective scale of 1-10 for conditions of selling items, because one man's "excellent condition" camera might be another man's "poor condition" camera. Ebay has that, so does hifivision.com or audiogon.com, you can use them as models.

Quote from: Nitin Goel on May 29, 2023, 10:05:23 PM
Dear Admins and All members,

I came across this post "https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,66182.msg493012.html#msg493012" where id: alphahead (Mr. Bhaskar Rao) was selling Sony 2x Teleconverter. I contacted him on mentioned mobile number and he mentioned that this teleconverter is in Excellent condition and only two times used in past 4 years. It is like new only very minor one scratch mark on the body. Then I bought this item from him after making agreed payment.

When I received the teleconverter, found that teleconverter was dropped and having two dents on the mount. The mounting / unmounting button paint is chip off from all sides and it is impossible that this product is used only two times. I bought it due to his assurance that the product is like new only and only 2 times used. Please refer to the attached two pictures.

Once received, I immediately notified him with pictures, but he has refused to take back the teleconverter and return the money.

Pls do not buy anything from this person. He is not a genuine person.

Moderators requesting you to take suitable action and all members please be cautious.


Thanks,

Nitin Goel

Quote from: alphahead on July 06, 2023, 05:47:40 PM

Every single imperfection the buyer mentions on the TC is clearly visible in the photos in the ad that alone is enough to absolve me, its concrete proof.

Hello, you misled the forum about the condition of the teleconverter. It is plain to see. I don't want to cast aspersions, but an honest seller would point the damage out up front, while you seem to have concealed it deliberately.

Moral of the story for members: Don't buy from newbies.

Perhaps you did not read my message properly. I pointed out to the buyer and sent him photos of the imperfections. That's about as "honest seller" as you can get. And what exactly did I conceal deliberately?
You are sitting on a high horse and you ARE casting aspersions.

Moral of the story: Everyone thinks they are perfect and is looking for a scapegoat when they have made a mistake.

Anyways I have said my side of the story. No need to be hostile to newbies with your silly morals, I don't need to be a part of a forum like that if that is the culture here, let us remember everyone starts off as a newbie. ::)

Since you've asked, please point out where exactly you have highlighted the "imperfections" in your post.

Quote

On Phone, he mentioned that this teleconverter is just 2 times used and in like condition with very minor one scratch mark on the body

Quote

Caution!  Buyers are strongly advised to read the Forum Rules and do their own due diligence before buying.

Bought from JJ Mehta, 4 years ago. Have bill, cover, no box.
Used once for a trip. Not used in past 3.5 years.

Call/Whatsapp: 8297689707

Item for Sale: Sony 2x teleconverter SEL20TC
Asking Price: 35000
Item Location: Goa
Item's Age & its Description: 4 years, excellent condition
Are you the original owner* of the item being sold? YES
Do you have the original Bill? Yes
Objects included for listed item** (caps, lens shade, box, etc.): Cover, cap
Is the Item under warranty? No
Are you interested in trading this item? No
Condition (Appearance/Functionality): Excellent
Repairs done and parts replaced: NO
Optics condition,  Front/Back/Inside with respect to:   Fungus:    Dust:    Haze:    Scratches:    Aperture function: ALL PERFECt
Shipping Destinations: India
Preferred Shipping Services: Blue Dart
Accepted Payment Types: UPI/Bank transfer
Return Policy Applicable/Not Applicable (Terms & Conditions): No returns
Special Note:

Also quoting an important part of Rule 8 here. Please indicate how exactly you were in compliance.

Quote

If the seller sees that a product has a clearly visible defect, he/she is required to provide a clear image and description of it to be sure that the limitation is well understood before a deal is struck.

Quote from: alphahead on July 07, 2023, 09:34:57 AM
Perhaps you did not read my message properly. I pointed out to the buyer and sent him photos of the imperfections. That's about as "honest seller" as you can get. And what exactly did I conceal deliberately?
You are sitting on a high horse and you ARE casting aspersions.

Moral of the story: Everyone thinks they are perfect and is looking for a scapegoat when they have made a mistake.

Anyways I have said my side of the story. No need to be hostile to newbies with your silly morals, I don't need to be a part of a forum like that if that is the culture here, let us remember everyone starts off as a newbie. ::)

Quote from: alphahead on July 07, 2023, 09:34:57 AM
And what exactly did I conceal deliberately?

Since I'm not privy to the info/photos you might have provided to the buyer over phone/whatsapp, etc, I will not comment on that. But in addition to the lack of disclosure regarding "clearly visible defect" as pointed out by Bharat, the biggest issue here is non-disclosure regarding "Repairs done and parts replaced: NO". Thanks to the telltale signs on the rear mount "weather seal" gasket visible in photos uploaded, it is very evident that the TC has been pried open for repairs (fungus cleaning or element alignment, I cannot say). Since you have claimed to be the original owner, its impossible that those signs would be there without your knowledge.

I'm afraid it dont look too good.

PS - I guess this also underlines the importance of sticking to forum messages to keep  conversation well "documented" in messages, especially in wake of "disappearing" whatsapp chats and/or issues arising out of verifiability/illegality phone call recordings.

Dear Moderators,

As per below reply from Mr. Bhaskar Rao (Alphahead) stating that "I pointed out to the buyer and sent him photos of the imperfections", Please refer to the attached snapshot from my whatsapp regarding the photos which he sent to me. You will understand what kind of photographs he shared with me. All pics are taken in dim light and cleverly hiding the defects.

Nothing much I want to say. Just be cautious with this person.


Thank you.

Nitin Goel

Quote from: alphahead on July 07, 2023, 09:34:57 AM
Perhaps you did not read my message properly. I pointed out to the buyer and sent him photos of the imperfections. That's about as "honest seller" as you can get. And what exactly did I conceal deliberately?
You are sitting on a high horse and you ARE casting aspersions.

Moral of the story: Everyone thinks they are perfect and is looking for a scapegoat when they have made a mistake.

Anyways I have said my side of the story. No need to be hostile to newbies with your silly morals, I don't need to be a part of a forum like that if that is the culture here, let us remember everyone starts off as a newbie. ::)

As I said before, the seller's photos posted here seem to be taken to minimise the damage. The buyers photos tell a different story.

If I were the seller I'd keep quiet! He has ensured that we will not forget. End of story.

Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on July 07, 2023, 04:25:11 PM
...If I were the seller I'd keep quiet! He has ensured that we will not forget. End of story.

One cannot be too careful in assuring correct representation of the product.  We should go out of our way to guarantee that our buyer is happy with the result.  It is not a good thing to become a person of interest in the FROWNS thread.

Dear Admins and All members,
This is regarding my experience purchasing a Nikon D850 camera with a 24-120 f4 lens from Mr. Valay Patel (valayp59). After discussing over phone and checking the camera over whatsapp video call I paid him on 13th Sept, '23. In the conversation he mentioned that the lens is having some fungus. Apart from that there is no other problem in the functionality of either the camera or the lens. He dispatched the camera next day surprisingly by roadways on the pretext that the courier does not sent by air due to presence of battery. The courier also told him that it is risky so to make insurance but he did not. Collected the camera from DTDC counter on 22nd evening. While checking the functioning of different settings of the camera on 24th night I noticed some exposure inconsistencies. In some of the sequences taken in continuous mode the exposure appears to differ from shot to shot. Actually it is not across the whole frame so is more like a shadow. I tested again next day by resetting the camera to manual and without any auto setting(auto-iso etc). By evening I was sure that there is some problem with the camera so I informed him so. Meanwhile I was planning to get the the camera checked with Nikon service center. He also told me the same. On 26th I gave the camera to Nikon Service. Next day, on 27th Nikon Service gave an estimate of Rs 18917/- where it states 'Shutter' and 'I plate' replacement cost and labour charge. I informed Mr Valay about it. He did not talk in one pretext or other. Switched off phone at times and did not receive calls. I posted a PM in forum and after that able to contact him. On 29th,at about 8:30PM he told me he will give some solution the next day.(He did say a lot of things and am not reproducing here as irrelevant) Till today I have not heard from him.

Abhijit Sarma (forum id abhijit)

Hello Everyone.
I met this guy from JJM Forum. He only called me and showed interest of buying Nikon D850 with Nikon 24-120mm Lens. We had pretty much conversation and a solo whatsapp video call where he did check everything. He asked me to capture 1 photo with camera on video call itself. After that he told me to mail it, which i did. And he said deal is closed and he made the full transfer. My camera was working perfectly when it was with me. Next day i called him that courier guy is asking for insurance of camera as it is expensive stuff. i called him and told him everything about insurance. After his confirmation i courier all the stuff to him. I've all the Phone Call recordings with me. If necessary i can present all of them to anyone who wants clarity regarding this matter.

You recorded my phone call  without my consent which is illigal. You also want to share the call with anybody. Now send all the calls in full duration unedited and untrimmed to the moderators with a copy to me. Also show where you told me about the insurance 'before' booking the camera.
All the above does not prove that you already are not aware of the fault. Such faults are intermittent and can not be detected over whatsapp call.
The lens is  having problem as well. I am yet to get it checked at nikon service.
Moderators : please see to this illigal recording business and do the needful.

Who told you that recording a phone call is illegal activity. Not only your phone call, I have all the recordings of my all the incoming phone calls. This feature comes with smart phones now a days. And why would I edit your phone call recordings. I've already told you that I'm not making money out of this. Whatever issues you are talking about, they were not with me when I was handling my camera. Also I had a proper post on JJM Forum which you had gone through obviously. Also note that he received camera and lens many days ago & Now he is saying that lens is also faulty. How one can believe him for this kind of stuff. So it is not my fault at all. You can report to moderator if you want. I don't mind.

You share your phone call recordings with the moderators. The truth will come out. You told if you can not come with a solution for repairing you will take it back. You stopped communicating. I know what you are. Let the forum members know.

Quote from: sydbarett on June 23, 2023, 08:17:06 PM
This is feedback in respect of Mr Sudhir Damerla (id - sudhirdamerla - https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=51788)

THE TRANSACTION - The buyer purchased the Manfrotto Gimbal MVG220 listed here :- https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,66495.0.html

THE FACTS - Buyer contacted me on June 05 indicating the requirement for fast shipping so that he could use it for a shoot on June 08. I replied saying I could ship same day via DTDC (if payment is cleared before 4PM) for additional cost with June 7 as tentative delivery date. I told him I was willing to bear the balance cost of DTDC shipping if he could bear 100 bucks extra to which he agreed. These messages were being exchanged around 12 and Buyer finally made payment of 16.25K @ 4PM (after reminder) and wrote back requesting item to be shipped via DTDC blue if possible. He told me he was willing to bear the difference between DTDC Lite and Blue if I could ship via Blue (next day delivery). I said I'll try since it was already getting late for the "blue" cut-off.

The packed item weighed over 2.5 kgs and DTDC quoted a figure of 520 for DTDC Lite shipping and ~1700-1800 for DTDC Blue (using volumetric weight method instead of the actual weight). The Blue prices were downright obnoxious and so I quickly booked via "Lite". I paid the amount of 520/- and informed him of the total cost and tracking details as also requesting him to pay the shipping balance. He replied back saying he'd do so "in a bit". The item was eventually delivered on June 07 to his satisfaction.

THE ISSUE - I have sent him a number of reminders for payment of the balance shipping fee but up till the time of this post, he has neither paid the same nor responded on the topic after the initial message saying he would do so in a bit.

This is NOT the first time I have had hardball played over 50-100 rupees (I reported one such incident here :- https://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,5808.msg488248.html#msg488248 ) and I'm sure it wont be the last. But I do find this rather disturbing and a sign of deep-rooted malaise. If you cant trust someone to keep his word for 100-200 bucks, you cant trust him for anything.

INTERVENTION SOUGHT - NONE. This is just feedback.

I have never cared for $1-$2 "negotiations" and I'm not going to start now. For my part I will NOT be having any transactions with him in future. Readers may want to exercise caution and ensure full payment is received before shipping out any item. In this case and in others.

Thank You !

Apologies for the miscommunication with my office regarding the balance payment. I believe there has been a bigger mixup when I asked the 200 to be transferred and 540 got transferred? Strange that what happened later has not been reported?

Quote from: sudhirdamerla on November 16, 2023, 01:35:46 PM
Apologies for the miscommunication with my office regarding the balance payment. I believe there has been a bigger mixup when I asked the 200 to be transferred and 540 got transferred? Strange that what happened later has not been reported?

Miscommunication with your "office" ? ROFLing...

Apparently, your "office" seems to have been guilty of quite a lot 'miscommunication' :-

(1) I'm sure you must have instructed them at the outset (June 05) to make payment of balance but on their own they have decided to wait for a "FROWN" comment to crop up on June 23 before finally deciding to go ahead with the payment on Sep 06, exactly three months after it was supposed to be made ! Now, wasnt that the time when you were listing a few items for sale ? Nah.. surely, there cant be a connection between the two. I must be dreaming.

(2) I'm sure you must have communicated to them regarding the amount being 200/- but again on their own accord they have decided to make payment of 520/- which is incidentally the total extra amount incurred. How they arrived at the figure on their own I have no idea because it was communicated to you over "forum message" only, never to your "office".

(3) Then again I'm sure you must have instructed them to inform me after making the payment but again on their own they have decided NOT to do so !

(4) And I'm sure they must have informed you of having made the payment on Sep 6 yesterday only, which would explain why you are following up on the payment now - 2.5 months after it was made and almost 6 months after it was supposed to be made ! 

Hilarious... some "office" you seem to have got there !

No I half read your message and asked them to transfer 520. Again my bad. Fair fair, I dint not follow up as I was on a shoot for a month. But I have bought a lot of stuff here and sold a few I think and asking people not to deal with me in the future was a bit uncalled for? I have also brought a few things from you previously too? Anyway I don't think this is worth dragging on forever. And finally the only reason was that I was on this was to see why one item I sold has not been paid for by a member.

For the benefit of the Admin and the members of JJMPF:
EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION BEFORE BUY ANY PHOTO/ VIDEO ITEM FROM THIS PERSON.

Seller name on JJMPF: viisshnu1
GPay: Vishnu Vardhan
Truecaller: Weekend Gamer
Phone number: 7702252475

Item purchased: https://forum.jjmehta.com/index.php/topic,68851.0.html

JJMPF has some of the nicest people in the photography community, who are just a pleasure to interact and deal with. Unfortunately, I have now experienced the bitter side too. This person - Vishnu - posted a Nikon 50mm f/1.4D brand new, unused lens for sale on May 21, 2024. I get in touch the same night and made him an offer, to the extent my financial situation allowed me to. We had a chat but it didn't end in a sale. The next day he checked with me, but my offer was still the same. Later, that very day - May 22 - he surprisingly agreed and asked for an extra Rs 100 for packaging material. I first paid him this 100 bucks via GPay and post confirmation of receipt via Whatsapp, I made the full payment for the lens immediately. This was May 22. Next day, as I expect a message with tracking number and the shipping cost, he texts me saying that he's to travel to Bangalore and that his brother will take care of the courier during the weekend.

Weekend passed by. No news. I ask him about it. Said he'll check and let me know. Later I'm informed that the brother can't do the shipping, and that I should positively hear about the shipment that weekend (the 2nd weekend of the saga.)

This weekend too passed. No news. Now he states that he's still out of Hyderabad and would courier it the following weekend. Same blank promise, a third weekend now.

Again, like a sinister pattern, complete silence. I check with him one more time on Monday ie yesterday June 10. I'm now told that he's back in Hyderabad but has a client job for which he'll have to use the lens. So no commitment on when I would get it.

A lens that was touted as brand new and unused, and considered for purchase accordingly - and even paid for - is sought to be used for an indefinite time. All the while - for 21 odd days since I first interacted and 20 days since payment - I have been extremely patient and polite. Sure, people can have personal problems that prevent them discharging their duty or obligation, but this decision to wilfully not send the lens took the cake, and the bakery too. So I asked for my money back. Now I get open-ended replies of one more month for repayment, which after intense argument dropped to "earliest" and "as soon as possible".

Uncertainty loomed large though. I gave him two options, either return my money by Tuesday, June 11, or put the lens in the courier by 11th morning. He can't splurge my money and not send me my lens. I mean, this is outrightly unprofessional and downright unethical. Unilaterally deciding to use a lens which has been paid for - with no commitment on refund of payment made - raises serious red flags about this seller's true intentions. He didn't have the scruples to inform or check with me about his decision to prolong the delivery for an additional month and to use the item for a likely commercial shoot. It's exactly 3 weeks since I made the money transfer. I don't have my money back nor do I get the lens. In what world is this ok?

I had made this payment clearly communicating that I'm stretching my extremely low finances just for this lens' sake. Not here to fund some immoral person's filmmaking activity, by paying interest out of my own pocket on my loan. What an unscruplous low life. Waiting for my money now, since I received no shipping confirmation info by 8pm today (June 11).

Quote from: Krishna on June 11, 2024, 08:20:14 PMFor the benefit of the Admin and the members of JJMPF:
EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION BEFORE BUY ANY PHOTO/ VIDEO ITEM FROM THIS PERSON.

Seller name on JJMPF: viisshnu1
GPay: Vishnu Vardhan
Truecaller: Weekend Gamer
Phone number: 7702252475

Item purchased: https://forum.jjmehta.com/index.php/topic,68851.0.html

Krishna I think it is time to file a complaint with the police as well as cyber crime wing/division. You have his mobile number and full name as well as proof of payment and extended communications with him. Time to put an end to this.

Quote from: gsferrari on June 26, 2024, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: Krishna on June 11, 2024, 08:20:14 PMFor the benefit of the Admin and the members of JJMPF:
EXERCISE EXTREME CAUTION BEFORE BUY ANY PHOTO/ VIDEO ITEM FROM THIS PERSON.

Seller name on JJMPF: viisshnu1
GPay: Vishnu Vardhan
Truecaller: Weekend Gamer
Phone number: 7702252475

Item purchased: https://forum.jjmehta.com/index.php/topic,68851.0.html

Krishna I think it is time to file a complaint with the police as well as cyber crime wing/division. You have his mobile number and full name as well as proof of payment and extended communications with him. Time to put an end to this.

Hi. Yes, I was left with no choice but to approach the Cyber Crime division. Had filed a complaint and they immediately froze his account. Any person with a single gram of conscience would rectify this unethical approach. Unfortunately our friend is made of a different circuit. Without remorse, he offers me a part payment on the pre-condition that I withdraw my complaint and allow him to use his account. But prior to 'his offer', he first claimed that he has an 'other'account to live out of, hence this is just a minor glitch. And later, I'm told, the frozen account has no money in it. I have also been christened a 'Drama Queen', since I was vehemently expressing my anguish.

I now await the senior police official's advice here. The amount, in the larger expensive universe of photography, may seem small. But it is large enough for me at present, and sheds a bigger shadow of mistrust and fear of any transaction going forward.

Krishna
June 27, 7.40pm

I had a similar unfortunate experience with a seller on OLX. I found an advertisement for a DJI Action 4 camera adventure pack listed for Rs. 26,000 by an individual named Nidhi Pawar. After contacting the seller through OLX and moving the conversation to WhatsApp, I was instructed to pay Rs. 230 for courier pickup scheduling. The courier, Delhivery, was arranged.. The next day seller conducted a video call to show the package being picked up by a courier executive, which gave me confidence in the transaction. Subsequently, I transferred the full amount of Rs. 26,000 via Google Pay to the mobile number provided by the seller.. However, the seller claimed that there was a server issue and the payment was not received.

Attempts to track the shipment through the Delhivery app were unsuccessful, and further inquiries with my bank confirmed that the transaction was indeed successful. Despite numerous WhatsApp messages and phone calls, the seller continued to insist on non-receipt of funds and eventually cancelled the shipment, causing the item to be returned to him.. Through some contacts, I was able to confirm that he received the funds at the same time I made the transfer. Realizing that I had been defrauded, I filed a cyber crime complaint. Although recovering the money is proving to be difficult, the case is still ongoing. This incident has been a harsh lesson for me, and I urge others to exercise extreme caution when making online transactions..

Quote from: krishnenduk on June 27, 2024, 08:53:17 PMI had a similar unfortunate experience with a seller on OLX. I found an advertisement for a DJI Action 4 camera adventure pack listed for Rs. 26,000 by an individual named Nidhi Pawar. After contacting the seller through OLX and moving the conversation to WhatsApp, I was instructed to pay Rs. 230 for courier pickup scheduling. The courier, Delhivery, was arranged.. The next day seller conducted a video call to show the package being picked up by a courier executive, which gave me confidence in the transaction. Subsequently, I transferred the full amount of Rs. 26,000 via Google Pay to the mobile number provided by the seller.. However, the seller claimed that there was a server issue and the payment was not received.

Attempts to track the shipment through the Delhivery app were unsuccessful, and further inquiries with my bank confirmed that the transaction was indeed successful. Despite numerous WhatsApp messages and phone calls, the seller continued to insist on non-receipt of funds and eventually cancelled the shipment, causing the item to be returned to him.. Through some contacts, I was able to confirm that he received the funds at the same time I made the transfer. Realizing that I had been defrauded, I filed a cyber crime complaint. Although recovering the money is proving to be difficult, the case is still ongoing. This incident has been a harsh lesson for me, and I urge others to exercise extreme caution when making online transactions..

This is terrible, and I can, being in a similar state, completely empathise. Hope we recover our money well and soon. In my case, the action by the Cyber Crime Cell was immediate. The very next day they had blocked the account to which payment was done. Unfortunately, frauds might have multiple accounts and sim cards. This entire episode is painful.

Quote from: Krishna on June 29, 2024, 07:07:09 PM

Quote from: krishnenduk on June 27, 2024, 08:53:17 PMI had a similar unfortunate experience with a seller on OLX. I found an advertisement for a DJI Action 4 camera adventure pack listed for Rs. 26,000 by an individual named Nidhi Pawar. After contacting the seller through OLX and moving the conversation to WhatsApp, I was instructed to pay Rs. 230 for courier pickup scheduling. The courier, Delhivery, was arranged.. The next day seller conducted a video call to show the package being picked up by a courier executive, which gave me confidence in the transaction. Subsequently, I transferred the full amount of Rs. 26,000 via Google Pay to the mobile number provided by the seller.. However, the seller claimed that there was a server issue and the payment was not received.

Attempts to track the shipment through the Delhivery app were unsuccessful, and further inquiries with my bank confirmed that the transaction was indeed successful. Despite numerous WhatsApp messages and phone calls, the seller continued to insist on non-receipt of funds and eventually cancelled the shipment, causing the item to be returned to him.. Through some contacts, I was able to confirm that he received the funds at the same time I made the transfer. Realizing that I had been defrauded, I filed a cyber crime complaint. Although recovering the money is proving to be difficult, the case is still ongoing. This incident has been a harsh lesson for me, and I urge others to exercise extreme caution when making online transactions..

This is terrible, and I can, being in a similar state, completely empathise. Hope we recover our money well and soon. In my case, the action by the Cyber Crime Cell was immediate. The very next day they had blocked the account to which payment was done. Unfortunately, frauds might have multiple accounts and sim cards. This entire episode is painful.

The same thing happened in my case too.. The Cyber cell department immediately froze his account, but the procedure to recover money is difficult and time consuming as far as I know..

Had a negative experience when dealing with this user : Surendranath M for the item mentioned in this post :

https://forum.jjmehta.com/index.php/topic,69494.msg503763.html#msg503763

The lens was shipped using DTDC with a filter attached (not requested by me). I received the lens with the filter shattered, and some of the  broken pieces of the filter in the lens which I had to remove very carefully. The lens was packed in a in a flimsy carboard box with only bubble wrap, when I pointed this to the seller , he said this was due to handling issues  from the courier side, he wanted to see an unboxing video of the lens. In my 10 years with this forum, I never felt the need to do an unboxing video for any item, however I urge fellow members to take an unboxing video of any item when buying from this seller. He has other items for sale in this forum too. Also the lens was shipped with an after market lens cap, seller only mentioned this fact after shipping the lens. I am still waiting for him to dispatch the original lens cap.

This feedback is about use of Multiple/Dummy/Group IDs for conducting and manipulating transactions on this forum or using the same for other ulterior/fraudulent motives. I have been experiencing several attempts at this lately - sometimes with proof, at other times with just hunches.

An active forum member has recently got one of his "friends" to buy an item from me simply because I refused to deal with him basis our earlier interactions. I dont even know if this "friend" is actually for real or just another Dummy/Group ID for the active member. Details regarding the nature of this "Proxy Purchase" were NOT disclosed beforehand but came into light only after I made independent enquiries. Since the payment was already made and I didnt want to make an issue out of this, I decided to go ahead and ship the item. I have also decided not to disclose the names/IDs of the parties involved (unless there is further provocation) or request MODs to intervene regarding this. That said, I do find it highly unfair that people would have no hesitation indulging in such practices while I should have qualms reporting them.

Operating Multiple/Dummy/Group IDs, etc can by itself be a very problematic thing for any forum (our own forum prohibits this practice via Item.14 of BST Guidelines). But the importance of abundant caution while dealing with Multiple/new/dormant/inactive IDs cannot be overemphasised even from a sellers perspective. Its a very common practice on OLX, FB, etc to use multiple IDs to 'soften' a seller to get him to sell something for cheap. Or buy a cheap item using Dummy IDs and get potshots at seller for free ! These are just examples. The possibilities, to use that cliche, are "limitless".

On a related note, I often get enquiries where buyer agrees to buy and at last moment chickens out by blaming - my "friend" does not need this anymore. While it may be alright to buy for "friends", I think a proper prior disclosure regarding this is in order. Just as we expect a disclosure from seller selling on behalf of a "friend", I would expect a disclosure from buyer buying on behalf of a "friend" ! Can save a lot of potential trouble and heartburns later.

There's just too much of buying on behalf of a "friend" happening these days.

DTDC has gone to the dogs.

I strongly suggest filing a consumer complaint against the company for the damage.

Send one mail to DTDC with details of the damage and demand adequate compensation. Keep track of any response from them (which is very likely to be either nil, or just a stupid template driven mail), and then report them to the consumer forum.

(The shoddy packaging is inexcusable, and the seller is certainly at least partly responsible for this unfortunate occurence).

Quote from: tapobrata_tb on September 04, 2024, 09:44:53 AMHad a negative experience when dealing with this user : Surendranath M for the item mentioned in this post :

https://forum.jjmehta.com/index.php/topic,69494.msg503763.html#msg503763

The lens was shipped using DTDC with a filter attached (not requested by me). I received the lens with the filter shattered, and some of the  broken pieces of the filter in the lens which I had to remove very carefully. The lens was packed in a in a flimsy carboard box with only bubble wrap, when I pointed this to the seller , he said this was due to handling issues  from the courier side, he wanted to see an unboxing video of the lens. In my 10 years with this forum, I never felt the need to do an unboxing video for any item, however I urge fellow members to take an unboxing video of any item when buying from this seller. He has other items for sale in this forum too. Also the lens was shipped with an after market lens cap, seller only mentioned this fact after shipping the lens. I am still waiting for him to dispatch the original lens cap.

Quote from: tapobrata_tb on September 04, 2024, 09:44:53 AMHad a negative experience when dealing with this user : Surendranath M for the item mentioned in this post :

https://forum.jjmehta.com/index.php/topic,69494.msg503763.html#msg503763

The lens was shipped using DTDC with a filter attached (not requested by me). I received the lens with the filter shattered, and some of the  broken pieces of the filter in the lens which I had to remove very carefully. The lens was packed in a in a flimsy carboard box with only bubble wrap, when I pointed this to the seller , he said this was due to handling issues  from the courier side, he wanted to see an unboxing video of the lens. In my 10 years with this forum, I never felt the need to do an unboxing video for any item, however I urge fellow members to take an unboxing video of any item when buying from this seller. He has other items for sale in this forum too. Also the lens was shipped with an after market lens cap, seller only mentioned this fact after shipping the lens. I am still waiting for him to dispatch the original lens cap.

Sometimes it may be wise to ask for a "boxing or packing" video to see for yourself (and possibly correct) how it is being packed before dispatch. I have sent packing videos to some members who bought items from me, especially if they were unsure of the safety of the courier process.
Having said that, the videos I sent were initiated by me, for their confidence, not because they requested it.
 
Still IMHO there is nothing wrong with asking for one on your first transaction with an unknown seller, and be on the safe side.