I have never done Bird Photography in my life. Just an attempt at capturing flamingos once around Mumbai.
My query is- what Camera mode is preferable while shooting birds ?
Shutter priority, Aperture Priority or Full manual? Use of Auto-Iso in any of these modes.
I personally find logic in either using Shutter priority with Auto-Iso/fixed iso or then
Full manual with auto-iso and compensation for minor exposure changes.
But many big wildlife photographers are suggesting aperture priority +controlling the iso manually.
Can i have better explanations or logic behind either of them?
If you are starting out, try all the methods you have been advised and settle on what suits you best. Everyone who gave you an opinion felt it worked for them. You have to find what works best for you.
Having said that, I do not use aperture priority because I want full control of my (high) shutter speed to counter the bird's movements which frequently happen even when the bird appears static. Micro-movement of perched birds is inversely proportional to the size of the bird. Small bird-more movement, large bird-less movement. I gave up using shutter priority quite early in my birding experience because the budget zoom tele - lenses that I started out with, had variable aperture - usually F5.6 at the short end and F6.3/F8 at the long end, complicating the issue.
I use full manual (M)with a fixed ISO for birds that are perched and full manual (M) with auto ISO for flying birds. Flying birds particularly against changing backgrounds (trees, water, open ground or sky) often require dynamic (varying) exposure for optimal tonality.
Quote from: Abhishek Paranjape on April 21, 2024, 10:47:20 PMI have never done Bird Photography in my life. Just an attempt at capturing flamingos once around Mumbai.
My query is- what Camera mode is preferable while shooting birds ?
Shutter priority, Aperture Priority or Full manual? Use of Auto-Iso in any of these modes.
I personally find logic in either using Shutter priority with Auto-Iso/fixed iso or then
Full manual with auto-iso and compensation for minor exposure changes.
But many big wildlife photographers are suggesting aperture priority +controlling the iso manually.
Can i have better explanations or logic behind either of them?
There's no simple answer, since there are two major variables in this equation.
1. Static Birds vs Birds in Flight
2. Your camera body
Minor variables would be the color of the bird (under or over exposure may be required), the amount of light available (will determine the maximum iso you can comfortably use), your familiarity with your camera, shoulder/arm strength etc.
Shutter speed is the first critical parameter. As slow as you can go for static birds, and as fast as your comfortable iso range allows for birds in flight (which will also depends on the birds and their distance from you).
Option 1 - the easiest option would be to start with shutter priority mode and leave the iso floating upto your chosen limit. This usually means that you will be shooting wide open. Which is fine if the depth of field and lens sharpness are satisfactory at that aperture.
Option 2 - Manual mode, controlling both shutter speed and aperture, and letting iso float. Allows you the additional control over your depth of field and lens sharpness.
Option 3 - This one is complicated and camera dependent. Some high end cameras allow you to switch between two entirely different settings for your shot simply by using two different buttons for back button AF. You can set your primary shooting mode to something satisfactory for what you are currently doing (say high shutter speeds for birds in flight) and set the secondary mode to a much slower shutter speed for static birds. Then you simply move your thumb slightly to activate the second mode instantly. Some cameras also allow you to change the AF points arrangement with the press of a button (The joystick on Nikon D500, for example). You could have a cluster of points active for the regular mode, and just a single pin point AF point for static birds.
Birding is very demanding on gear. And something that needs a lot of practice just to get the technicalities right. Then come the composition and post processing skills.
Have fun. :)
Quote from: Krish Chandran on April 22, 2024, 09:50:07 AMIf you are starting out, try all the methods you have been advised and settle on what suits you best. Everyone who gave you an opinion felt it worked for them. You have to find what works best for you.
Having said that, I do not use aperture priority because I want full control of my (high) shutter speed to counter the bird's movements which frequently happen even when the bird appears static. Micro-movement of perched birds is inversely proportional to the size of the bird. Small bird-more movement, large bird-less movement. I gave up using shutter priority quite early in my birding experience because the budget zoom tele - lenses that I started out with, had variable aperture - usually F5.6 at the short end and F6.3/F8 at the long end, complicating the issue.
I use full manual (M)with a fixed ISO for birds that are perched and full manual (M) with auto ISO for flying birds. Flying birds particularly against changing backgrounds (trees, water, open ground or sky) often require dynamic (varying) exposure for optimal tonality.
How do you switch quickly between the two, Krish?
Does your camera allow two buttons to be used for BBAF? With different settings?
(Turning the dial for C1/C2 etc. isn't quick enough, imo).
Quote from: Bharat Varma on April 22, 2024, 12:17:15 PMHow do you switch quickly between the two, Krish?
Does your camera allow two buttons to be used for BBAF? With different settings?
(Turning the dial for C1/C2 etc. isn't quick enough, imo).
The Nikon Z8/Z9 allows the "i menu" to be customized to switch Shooting banks (a slightly more evolved version than what was on the D500/D850)
Shooting bank A can be customized for one profile (static birds) and B for another (BIF). Banks C and D are also available for additional profiles.
Additionally, a function button can be customized for "
cycle AF area mode" to go from say single point to an area mode with one press of the function button. While setting it I choose only two out of a possible 6 choices so with one press I can switch to and a second press to revert.
It is also possible to set AF area modes on the "joystick" like on the D500 if that is what the photographer prefers.
More choices/ options as the cameras advance
Still, I really loved the U1/U2 knob that was on my old D750. I wish they get that back :D
Nikon banks are complicated, and that still means an additional button press if I get it right.
Can't switch with the camera held to the eye, right?
Canon really does seem to get this better.
One rear AF button to shoot birds in flight, another rear button for static birds. And there's a huge range of settings that you can customize for the alt button, including exposure compensation if required.
Both Canon and Nikon should learn from each other. I really miss the double press delete from Nikon. :)
Quote from: Krish Chandran on April 22, 2024, 12:41:27 PMThe Nikon Z8/Z9 allows the "i menu" to be customized to switch Shooting banks (a slightly more evolved version than what was on the D500/D850)
Sony has a similar(?) system where pressing a button gives you an overriding set of settings. In fact, you can three buttons, three sets. I guess that, for it to be fast enough, it might need to to be thumb-on-button*finger-on-shutter.
I've never tried it. But I do come across people who find it genuinely useful.
Option 1 - the easiest option would be to start with shutter priority mode and leave the iso floating upto your chosen limit. This usually means that you will be shooting wide open. Which is fine if the depth of field and lens sharpness are satisfactory at that aperture.
Option 3 - This one is complicated and camera dependent. Some high end cameras allow you to switch between two entirely different settings for your shot simply by using two different buttons for back button AF. You can set your primary shooting mode to something satisfactory for what you are currently doing (say high shutter speeds for birds in flight) and set the secondary mode to a much slower shutter speed for static birds. Then you simply move your thumb slightly to activate the second mode instantly. Some cameras also allow you to change the AF points arrangement with the press of a button (The joystick on Nikon D500, for example). You could have a cluster of points active for the regular mode, and just a single pin point AF point for static birds.
[/quote]
i have a nikon D4 and have 4 shooting banks which can be conveniently changed by using either the preview button or function button. so i can keep different settings for either in flight or resting birds.
will try this option out definitely.
Quote from: Krish Chandran on April 22, 2024, 09:50:07 AMIf you are starting out, try all the methods you have been advised and settle on what suits you best. Everyone who gave you an opinion felt it worked for them. You have to find what works best for you.
Having said that, I do not use aperture priority because I want full control of my (high) shutter speed to counter the bird's movements which frequently happen even when the bird appears static. Micro-movement of perched birds is inversely proportional to the size of the bird. Small bird-more movement, large bird-less movement. I gave up using shutter priority quite early in my birding experience because the budget zoom tele - lenses that I started out with, had variable aperture - usually F5.6 at the short end and F6.3/F8 at the long end, complicating the issue.
I use full manual (M)with a fixed ISO for birds that are perched and full manual (M) with auto ISO for flying birds. Flying birds particularly against changing backgrounds (trees, water, open ground or sky) often require dynamic (varying) exposure for optimal tonality.
thank you for the explanation of all the 3 modes.
Quote from: Bharat Varma on April 22, 2024, 02:22:15 PMNikon banks are complicated, and that still means an additional button press if I get it right.
Can't switch with the camera held to the eye, right?
Canon really does seem to get this better.
One rear AF button to shoot birds in flight, another rear button for static birds. And there's a huge range of settings that you can customize for the alt button, including exposure compensation if required.
Both Canon and Nikon should learn from each other. I really miss the double press delete from Nikon. :)
the different banks on my camera can be switched without taking the eye, needs a button press ( either index or middle finger near the grip) and the dial to cycle through all 4 banks.
Quote from: Thad E Ginathom on April 22, 2024, 05:51:15 PMQuote from: Krish Chandran on April 22, 2024, 12:41:27 PMThe Nikon Z8/Z9 allows the "i menu" to be customized to switch Shooting banks (a slightly more evolved version than what was on the D500/D850)
Sony has a similar(?) system where pressing a button gives you an overriding set of settings. In fact, you can three buttons, three sets. I guess that, for it to be fast enough, it might need to to be thumb-on-button*finger-on-shutter.
I've never tried it. But I do come across people who find it genuinely useful.
thank you for this. my friend is on a sony system, will let him know about the same.
While it is good to get help from people who are already accomplished in what you intend to do, your best learning will come with practical trial & experience.
As a long time photog you must have plenty of memory cards lying about. Take them with you when you go into the field. Try each method on one card. Remove it try the next method on another card. . . and so on.
When you get back to your computer you will have clearly differentiated folders of pictures of each method you tried. Comparing them will help you decide on the method to adopt.
Quote from: DeepakS on April 23, 2024, 08:08:46 PMWhile it is good to get help from people who are already accomplished in what you intend to do, your best learning will come with practical trial & experience.
As a long time photog you must have plenty of memory cards lying about. Take them with you when you go into the field. Try each method on one card. Remove it try the next method on another card. . . and so on.
When you get back to your computer you will have clearly differentiated folders of pictures of each method you tried. Comparing them will help you decide on the method to adopt.
Good idea.
Extending this further -
Do memory banks on Nikon support saving to different folders on a single card?
Do custom settings on Canon enable this?
If yes, this would probably make things easier. (Any image within a folder would provide the required settings info).
Quote from: Bharat Varma on April 23, 2024, 09:33:28 PMQuote from: DeepakS on April 23, 2024, 08:08:46 PMWhile it is good to get help from people who are already accomplished in what you intend to do, your best learning will come with practical trial & experience.
As a long time photog you must have plenty of memory cards lying about. Take them with you when you go into the field. Try each method on one card. Remove it try the next method on another card. . . and so on.
When you get back to your computer you will have clearly differentiated folders of pictures of each method you tried. Comparing them will help you decide on the method to adopt.
Good idea.
Extending this further -
Do memory banks on Nikon support saving to different folders on a single card?
Do custom settings on Canon enable this?
If yes, this would probably make things easier. (Any image within a folder would provide the required settings info).
no, this is not supported on Nikon. but i do follow a simple idea when i am shooting different techniques. i just a put a hand in front of the lens when switching to something new. when checking the snaps, i know that what follows after the hand is different.
I use Aperture Priority mode (mostly). And auto ISO to manage the shutter. If I do need a specific shutter then Shutter priority mode. I mostly shoot handheld or with a bag or with a monopod.
I find accurate focusing to be the bigger challenge. The newer bodies do 'eye focus' and you are sorted. In complicated scenes when auto is not giving me exact focus, I switch to the DMF mode on my Sony A7R3. This lets me do the manual adjustment. This has given me very good results.
The metering is mostly on center spot. In very bright and open conditions the zone metering can also work.
regards,
Abhijit
Quote from: Abhijit Rao on June 11, 2024, 06:13:06 PMI use Aperture Priority mode (mostly). And auto ISO to manage the shutter. If I do need a specific shutter then Shutter priority mode. I mostly shoot handheld or with a bag or with a monopod.
I find accurate focusing to be the bigger challenge. The newer bodies do 'eye focus' and you are sorted. In complicated scenes when auto is not giving me exact focus, I switch to the DMF mode on my Sony A7R3. This lets me do the manual adjustment. This has given me very good results.
The metering is mostly on center spot. In very bright and open conditions the zone metering can also work.
regards,
Abhijit
my doubt over aperture priority is this- lets say i am shooting wideopen and yet due to auto iso setting, my shutter won't become fast as i want due to sudden change of condition, then what do i do ?
Quote from: Abhishek Paranjape on June 16, 2024, 11:43:57 PMmy doubt over aperture priority is this- lets say i am shooting wideopen and yet due to auto iso setting, my shutter won't become fast as i want due to sudden change of condition, then what do i do ?
In Aperture Priority mode when your shutter speed varies, assuming the ISO is manual, changing conditions can be tackled by ISO adjustment. If both shutter speed and ISO are floating you're almost in Auto mode, dependent on the camera's ability to "read the scene".
For any control, you need at least two of the three (SS/A/ISO) to be constant, else your "keeper rate" will fall drastically. You'll get some shots but much fewer than when you're in control.
For bird photography shutter speed is vital, to freeze motion - even static birds move constantly. You need to fix aperture to achieve the correct DOF (else you might get the head in focus and the beak blurred or such like undesirable results). What you can leave floating - especially while panning for Birds in flight, is ISO, because backgrounds change and Auto ISO can compensate.
So, Manual mode with or without Auto ISO is
my recommendation for birding. Having said that, some birders I know quite successfully shoot at Aperture priority with a healthy keeper rate. They have developed ways to compensate the lack of a fixed shutter speed using other techniques, but that is another topic.
If you are shooting wide open (fastest aperture) and you have hit max ISO you set and IF the shutter speed is slower than you want then you need more light. In bird photography, you hardly can change the light. So either you will need to bump up the ISO to a value higher (lower image quality) or you will need to deal with the slower shutter (as you are already at the widest aperture). Light is paramount. If there is low light there is little you can do about it.
In bird / wildlife photography, rarely you need to go to a higher aperture - you will mostly shoot wide open. In that case the amount of available light dictates the ISO and shutter combination (both of which you need to choose for). That is the reason I find Aperture priority simpler - one less variable to deal with.
Abhijit
Quote from: Abhishek Paranjape on June 16, 2024, 11:43:57 PMQuote from: Abhijit Rao on June 11, 2024, 06:13:06 PMI use Aperture Priority mode (mostly). And auto ISO to manage the shutter. If I do need a specific shutter then Shutter priority mode. I mostly shoot handheld or with a bag or with a monopod.
I find accurate focusing to be the bigger challenge. The newer bodies do 'eye focus' and you are sorted. In complicated scenes when auto is not giving me exact focus, I switch to the DMF mode on my Sony A7R3. This lets me do the manual adjustment. This has given me very good results.
The metering is mostly on center spot. In very bright and open conditions the zone metering can also work.
regards,
Abhijit
my doubt over aperture priority is this- lets say i am shooting wideopen and yet due to auto iso setting, my shutter won't become fast as i want due to sudden change of condition, then what do i do ?
Quote from: Krish Chandran on June 17, 2024, 02:32:22 PMQuote from: Abhishek Paranjape on June 16, 2024, 11:43:57 PMmy doubt over aperture priority is this- lets say i am shooting wideopen and yet due to auto iso setting, my shutter won't become fast as i want due to sudden change of condition, then what do i do ?
In Aperture Priority mode when your shutter speed varies, assuming the ISO is manual, changing conditions can be tackled by ISO adjustment. If both shutter speed and ISO are floating you're almost in Auto mode, dependent on the camera's ability to "read the scene".
For any control, you need at least two of the three (SS/A/ISO) to be constant, else your "keeper rate" will fall drastically. You'll get some shots but much fewer than when you're in control.
For bird photography shutter speed is vital, to freeze motion - even static birds move constantly. You need to fix aperture to achieve the correct DOF (else you might get the head in focus and the beak blurred or such like undesirable results). What you can leave floating - especially while panning for Birds in flight, is ISO, because backgrounds change and Auto ISO can compensate.
So, Manual mode with or without Auto ISO is my recommendation for birding. Having said that, some birders I know quite successfully shoot at Aperture priority with a healthy keeper rate. They have developed ways to compensate the lack of a fixed shutter speed using other techniques, but that is another topic.
Would like some more details about this last bit about "other techniques" please.
Quote from: Krish Chandran on June 17, 2024, 02:32:22 PMQuote from: Abhishek Paranjape on June 16, 2024, 11:43:57 PMmy doubt over aperture priority is this- lets say i am shooting wideopen and yet due to auto iso setting, my shutter won't become fast as i want due to sudden change of condition, then what do i do ?
In Aperture Priority mode when your shutter speed varies, assuming the ISO is manual, changing conditions can be tackled by ISO adjustment. If both shutter speed and ISO are floating you're almost in Auto mode, dependent on the camera's ability to "read the scene".
For any control, you need at least two of the three (SS/A/ISO) to be constant, else your "keeper rate" will fall drastically. You'll get some shots but much fewer than when you're in control.
For bird photography shutter speed is vital, to freeze motion - even static birds move constantly. You need to fix aperture to achieve the correct DOF (else you might get the head in focus and the beak blurred or such like undesirable results). What you can leave floating - especially while panning for Birds in flight, is ISO, because backgrounds change and Auto ISO can compensate.
So, Manual mode with or without Auto ISO is my recommendation for birding. Having said that, some birders I know quite successfully shoot at Aperture priority with a healthy keeper rate. They have developed ways to compensate the lack of a fixed shutter speed using other techniques, but that is another topic.
i agree with you totally, hence i started the topic in the 1st place. for birds, freezing motion is the biggest priority, probably even more than DoF. that dictates that we have Shutter in our control and hence Shutter priority will be more helpful since aperture priority cannot control freezing motion.
My take-
apart from controlling light in a triangle, aperture, iso and shutter have following functions
Shutter- controlling motion, freezing, getting motion blur etc
Aperture- Controlling DoF
ISO- Image quality.
going by this logic for birds , i need motion, then depth and then quality under control.
so either go Full manual with Auto-ISO or then Shutter Priority with Auto-ISO again.
Also:
Freezing frame => Higher shutter
Higher shutter => more light
more light => usually widest aperture (unless very bright conditions)
We may not care much about DoF for birding but unless it is very bright you will end up with a wide aperture. And even in bright conditions, you will get higher shutter speeds with the wide aperture, which will improve the chances of sharp photos.
But bright conditions are not challenging in this aspect, are they? It's the lower light which is really challenging.
In lower light to get higher shutter speeds one will need either of the two :
a) wider aperture - for which there is a physical limitation
b) higher ISO - this is our only other param then
So it's a game between noise (higher ISO) or shake (slower shutter speeds).
... and for me, getting the eyes in sharp focus. My camera does not do that for me.
Quote from: Abhishek Paranjape on June 17, 2024, 09:06:23 PMQuote from: Krish Chandran on June 17, 2024, 02:32:22 PMQuote from: Abhishek Paranjape on June 16, 2024, 11:43:57 PMmy doubt over aperture priority is this- lets say i am shooting wideopen and yet due to auto iso setting, my shutter won't become fast as i want due to sudden change of condition, then what do i do ?
In Aperture Priority mode when your shutter speed varies, assuming the ISO is manual, changing conditions can be tackled by ISO adjustment. If both shutter speed and ISO are floating you're almost in Auto mode, dependent on the camera's ability to "read the scene".
For any control, you need at least two of the three (SS/A/ISO) to be constant, else your "keeper rate" will fall drastically. You'll get some shots but much fewer than when you're in control.
For bird photography shutter speed is vital, to freeze motion - even static birds move constantly. You need to fix aperture to achieve the correct DOF (else you might get the head in focus and the beak blurred or such like undesirable results). What you can leave floating - especially while panning for Birds in flight, is ISO, because backgrounds change and Auto ISO can compensate.
So, Manual mode with or without Auto ISO is my recommendation for birding. Having said that, some birders I know quite successfully shoot at Aperture priority with a healthy keeper rate. They have developed ways to compensate the lack of a fixed shutter speed using other techniques, but that is another topic.
i agree with you totally, hence i started the topic in the 1st place. for birds, freezing motion is the biggest priority, probably even more than DoF. that dictates that we have Shutter in our control and hence Shutter priority will be more helpful since aperture priority cannot control freezing motion.
My take-
apart from controlling light in a triangle, aperture, iso and shutter have following functions
Shutter- controlling motion, freezing, getting motion blur etc
Aperture- Controlling DoF
ISO- Image quality.
going by this logic for birds , i need motion, then depth and then quality under control.
so either go Full manual with Auto-ISO or then Shutter Priority with Auto-ISO again.
Continuing on exactly what you said, that the camera cannot give you sharp photos, you have to control it and you can keep it in control by changing the shutter speed yourself. Aperture priority won't allow you to do that directly.
Hence my argument about how why shutter priority or full manual should get preference over aperture priority.
Yes indeed. As the aperture is irrelevant (mostly) here, Shutter priority should work better for birding and wildlife. Being primarily a landscape and street photographer I have always used Aperture-priority and I suppose I got used to dealing with shutter indirectly. Let's see if I can remember to try Shutter priority next time birding. :-D. Interesting discussion.