Feedback - FROWNS

[thelightening]

Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit(3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15.It will put a safeguard atleast.I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing(yes including myself,I have bought a canon 60D from this forum).
Atleast some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay.
Regards
Francis

Francis, if u see the posts before, I already have suggested this idea, but its not possible to handle it seems, so mods replied that its not possible :(.

Most of the newbies here will join jjmf for selling or buying something... their first post majorly will be in buy&sell :)

[Hankosaurus]

Hello Francis.

Thanks for your ideas and input.

... A lot of newbies on their first post itself put up a sale for their friends, verifying it would be a herculean task isn't it.

Presently, any Member of JJMPF can sell equipment of his own which he has used, or occasionally sell equipment belonging to (and used by) a friend. Members should be ever mindful that newbies with no track record may or may not be credible. And, for that matter, experience has shown us that tenure is no guarantee of integrity in Buy & Sell either. It just gives the Members more data points from which to evaluate sellers and buyers.

I for one would never sell for a friend because it is hard to know how he or she use their equipment on their own. The only thing one can truly vouch for is their friends integrity & honesty. Non the less one should not stop members from buying good used equipment.

Well, if the Member isn't willing to stand in 100% for the owner and product to assure the quality of the deal, then he shouldn't sell for that friend.

If the seller is a vendor, trader, buyer, seller, broker or anyone else who has a profit motive as an on-going mode of operation, then he will not be allowed to conduct his business on JJMPF. His access will be blocked and his account will be removed. If JJMPF Members want to conduct business with such people as trade in camera gear, or in anything else, they will have to go elsewhere to manage their transactions with those businesses.

Just a suggestion that buy & sell should only be permitted on say a time limit (3 months on forum) or say minimum posts in other sections say about 10-15. It will put a safeguard at least.

The minimum post scheme can be easily defeated. As before mentioned above, even tenure is no assurance of integrity. To the point of a prerequisite "three month's Membership in good standing," it may seem like a helpful idea on the surface. However, anyone looking at a post can see what the seller Member's tenure is. Seems to me like he could just decide that he isn't going to buy from anyone with less than, say six month's tenure. That way, each buyer Member can take his own decision about how much tenure is acceptable to himself, and how much risk he is willing to entertain.

I am aware that a lot of members are buying in good faith as per the listing (yes including myself, I have bought a Canon 60D from this forum). At least some safeguards to keep the bad apples at bay. ... Regards, Francis

The very best safeguard is prudent judgement on the part of the Members participating in the Buy & Sell Forum. Beyond that, and working together, we can assure that the Buy & Sell Rules are adhered to.  This will go a long way toward keeping the damage to our fellow JJMPF Members from riff-raff at a minimum.

:)

[btgeorge]

Hello everyone,
I recently bought a Nikon SB 600 flash from member "Gurmeet" based on his post in the Buy and Sell Section:
http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php?topic=13884.0

Depending on his description of the item as 'mint' condition, and on a superficial examination of his posted pictures in that post, it seemed like a good deal.

I contacted him on the given number and he assured me that the condition was 'mint' and to hurry if I wanted the item as 'three others were interested' in the same.

Consequently, I paid Rs. 8500 plus Rs. 350 (shipping cost) =  Rs. 8850 to his bank account. Nothing happened for a few days. I contacted him and got him to send it finally.

To his credit, it was well packed and there was absolutely no sign of damage to the parcel while in transit and I opened the package in front of the courier guy and there was no external damage to the flash either.

The flash, however, was not in a mint condition. It was well used. There was a screw missing on the underside of the head (for reference see my post in the thread above) – suggesting that the flash unit had been repaired by a non-professional at least once.

I put in fresh batteries waited for the 'ready' yellow light to come on and pressed the 'test fire' button. A faint click and the 'ready' button blinked...no flash output.
Put the flash on my D90, clicked the shutter button..no flash.

I tried the zoom which was working. The LCD was also working. Did a reset and tried again with no results.

In short the flash was DOA.

I called up Mr. Gurmeet and told him that the flash was not firing. He suggested that the flash tube may have got damaged in transit!! (Instant Diagnosis!! How did he know it was a flash tube problem immediately, when other members needed more details from me to come to the same conclusion?).

Moreover, given the nature of the packing and the absence of any sign of external damage to the packing or the flash, I thought it extremely unlikely that the flash had got 'damaged' in transit.

But I still was willing to give him the benefit of doubt and continued discussion with him.

After some more discussion, he said he would repair the flash if I sent it to him. I agreed.
Half an hour later he seems to have changed his mind and sent me a one line email with the words "No return policy".

After getting this jolt, I tried to contact him many times – he either cut my calls or did not pick up, smsed him -  no response, emailed him -  no response.

Finally I put up a message to him on his sell thread asking him for a solution. He did not respond to that too for a couple of days. Meanwhile many members posted in that thread about the situation and the need for Mr. Gurmeet to take responsibility for his product.

After a couple of days, he responded sketchily, refusing to accept any responsibility for the flash and refusing to make amends.

I then made enquiries locally and ascertained that the repair cost, if it was a flash tube problem only would be around Rs. 1500. I then posted a message asking Mr. Gurmeet to re-imburse at least this amount. I emailed him the same message.

He refused, now asking him to send it back to him for repair. But given his attitude shown so far, I was not prepared to take the risk of sending it back to him. What if the flash got "damaged" again in transit? He said his role would end after sending the flash back after "repair".

Since he was not prepared to take any responsibility for his actions I am now posting this in the "FROWNS" thread to warn other members not to deal with Mr. Gurmeet in future.

I am convinced that he has willfully misrepresented the state of his flash as mint, whereas it is not mint at all. When the said flash arrived DOA, and he was confronted with the issue, he did not communicate any caring whatsoever for the buyer or for the product that he had sold.

In case he is banned and he rejoins this forum under some other name, I am posting his details too here:

Name: Gurmeet Singh
Address:
Studio Photogenic
Light Chowk, Near fly over
Kotkapura-151204
Dist: Faridkot,
Punjab
Phone number:  9216728176
Email: sarujai@rediffmail.com
Bank: HDFC
Account Number: 0648*******949 (partial number for obvious security reasons)

Thank you,
Rocky
PS: (Edited on 2nd December 2011)
I got the flash repaired at a good shop with an original Nikon Flash Tube for which I was charged Rs. 1350. The scan copy of the bill is attached.
I emailed the seller "gurmeet" and made him a very fair offer. Since it would cost me Rs 350 to send the flash to him for repair, I offered to deduct that amount from the bill and asked him to refund just Rs. 1000. (Even if I had sent the flash to him for repair as he wanted, he would have incurred Rs. 600 for repair - by his own admission - and another Rs. 350 for courier back to me after repair. So he would not lose anything by my offer.

PS 2: (Edited on 6th December 2011)
The seller emailed me denying any intention to defraud and agreed to partially reimburse the cost of repair as I offered him above.
He has refunded Rs. 1000 as his restitution.
Miracles do happen!! :)

[Hankosaurus]

Fellow Members,

It is the judgement of the Moderators that JJMPF Member "gurmeet" of Punjab has willfully misrepresented a product offered in Buy & Sell. Numerous fair and patiently presented attempts to encourage an amicable solution to the problem have failed. Accordingly, his account has been blocked as prescribed in Buy & Sell Rule 29a.

No further inquiries, nor any special comments from any Member on this issue will be entertained by the Moderators.

[thelightening]

wrt  "http://www.jjmehta.com/forum/index.php/topic,19269.0.html"

mukeshkhatri_ind  -  A buyer who bargained with me for more than 3-4 days to buy my 70-200 F/4 Lens offline. Even though I was sticking to my price, after multiple bargaining chat sessions, at last I agreed to the price he quoted, 34k (including the freebies, tripod collar and UV filter worth 1500Rs), based on which he requested me whether I can accept or cheque or not. Since I was not interested in any cheque deals, buyer agreed to do a fund transfer by yesterday (01 Jun) night or a direct cash deal today (02 Jun) noon.  He specifically requested me to consider my sale as booked and agree to mention the same in my sales threads. I have re-confirmed this two times and updated my WTS thread .

As per agreement both buyer and seller was suppose to meet today ( 02 Jun) noon. By 13:47pm today, buyer sms'ed me saying in some local stores (fotocircle) the prices are less(37k) and is not 41k.. so want to sit over and discuss about the same. As a seller I replied that, there is no changes possible in our agreement and its the same price as u negotiated.  Buyer sent me an another sms asking whats the brand of my tripod collar. I started feeling a bit awkward here, as we have fixed everything and the deal is agreed with all details for some price. I called the buyer and explained again. By the time buyer called the dealer from which I have bought the stuffs. So I feel a kind of untrustworthy here and said the rates we discussed are final and not interested to carry on any kind of re-bargaining.

Buyer backed out !!!

I personally feel this, not as a genuine step in a deal which the seller has agreed to the price by the buyer after hard bargaining everyday on multiple chat sessions. At last I agreed to the price negotiated by the buyer and marked the item booked. 

So would like to raise a caution on this member.

[rishabhdigha@gmail.com]

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

[toofan]

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

Another side of a coin.

[neocore]

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

There is no negativity from seller here, even i would have done the same thing(if people quote amazon prices), you should possibly think of shipping costs+customs issues before uttering something to the seller. Ultimately, no buyer is doing a favor for seller by buying his equipment. Most people cant judge humor in pings(including me  ;))

[kumarrishi]

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

There is no negativity from seller here, even i would have done the same thing(if people quote amazon prices), you should possibly think of shipping costs+customs issues before uttering something to the seller. Ultimately, no buyer is doing a favor for seller by buying his equipment. Most people cant judge humor in pings(including me  ;))

I will second what Neocore said , how do i judge someone is just asking it humorously or is a lowballer trying to get the item cheap. I would give benefit of doubt here to the seller as he might have already received lot of comments from Lowballers ! I faced this situation every time it tried to sell anything, even after posting fix price.

And Infantarian - Its note a joke when you don't take into account some of the cost neocore indicated. If a seller has a firm price that doesnt mean his attitude is negative. In online forums when we talk through text i find no way to tell peoples attitude through their messages.

[Brendon]

I have some experience in Fraud Management in the Government and Pvt. Sector as well. Whenever I have to deal with someone online whom I don't know personally, I try to track all his online activities (Social networks/posts etc.) I proceed only when I am sure about who I am dealing with. My entire kit has been bought used from different people but not once have I been sorry (touch-wood).

Even if I find a genuine seller, his attitude decides whether I go ahead with the deal. I recently pinged a seller for his Kata on JJM and I was 99% sure of buying it. In the ping I stated that I was interested but in good humour I wished I could get it from Amazon as the new price there was equal to the used price quoted here by him. The reply I got was "Good, Then buy it from Amazon". So the sellers attitude  shouts NEGATIVE. Deal off. Maybe its my fault that am buying used stuff here, raises a perception that I am short on dough. Poor me  :'(

I am with the seller on this one. Probably a bit harsh reaction TBH but I too would have felt quite offended if someone is quoting amazon prices while I have bought the bag from India where its much more expensive than what its sold for in the US.